When in India "died" wootz?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Estcrh! That makes perfect sense.......heck of a learning curve here for me but its great to finally get the picture together.

Jim, part of the difficulty in discussing this subject is the terminology, crucible steel is the process used in the middle east, this is what Europeans were after, how to make the high strength crucible steel in mass quantities, while some Europeans did want to learn how to made watered steel the real quest was for the basic crucible steel.

While the Indians made mass quantities of crucible steel it was a very labor intensive process, it also consumed mass quantities of wood. It does not appear that the other crucible steel centers (Buckhara, Persia etc) made crucible steel in the same mass quantities as the Indians. Once the steel was manufactured there was a completely different / complicated process used in the forging method to create watered / wootz / bulat / damascus steel. From mining the ore to having a watered steel blade was a very long and complex affair, yet the Indians and some others were able to carry this out for an extended period of time.

Once the Europeans upset this delicate balance the old system seemed to have collapsed, this appears to have happened very quickly in some areas and a bit slower in others but eventually except in a few isolated areas (from what I have read) the complete process of making crucible steel was lost, with no crucible steel there could be no watered steel as well. There were probably some left over stock and a few small manufactures left but eventually this faded away.

[Emanuel]

Just a quick clarification. As I recall from Ann Feuerbach, Richard Furrer, and other smiths, the watering in wootz, or the dendritic structure, was inherent to the ingot. The structure is primarily due to the cooling rate of the crucible at the time of production. Nothing to do with forging method of the tool or blade.

The annealing at constant low temperature was to make the metal soft enough to work without stressing it. Higher temperature break the dendritic structure and destroy the watery effect.

The salt baths mentioned in that account just etched the blade. Apparently etches work better when the metal is warm, as the heat "opens up the grain" for a better reaction with the etchant . Richard and other smiths on the forum please correct me but there is no way of converting a blade that doesn't have the crystalline dendritic structure to one that does. The process occurs when the metal cools from near-liquid phase to a solid. The Central Asian vs. Indian methods differed in both how the crucible was loaded with material, heated, and cooled.

Jim, the question of how many tools were made from crucible steel bugged me too: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20633
Not all crucible steel ended with the crystalline pattern as there was a relatively high failure rate due to poor temperature control.

[ariel]

+1.

As to the transmission of skills:
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?


Thus, between 1825 (potential peak of wootz blade forging) and 1900 in these countries there was a turnover of roughly 3 generations. That was on the background of catastrophic decline of wootz manufacture. Thus, there were not enough people living long enough to enter the apprentice pool and acquire skills without economic future; traditions just died out.

[Jim McDougall]

This is totally amazing guys! I really had no idea of these dynamics in this processing of steel, and your explanations really bring new dimensions to matters at hand here with production of steel and wootz.

The focus on dendritic structure and how it was key to the production of the wootz, as well as the basic crucible method pursued by the Europeans and long extant in India where they sought its methods say a lot about the circumstances which brought about the very subtle disappearance of the beautiful wootz.

Ariel brings in a most interesting aspect to be factored in, the basic life span of those key to the apparently very delicate methods of production , which seem very much to apply to temperature controls. It seems logical that these relatively short generations of artisans with diminishing demand for the watered steel might play into lack of perpetuation of the necessary skills needed.

On one hand here it sounds like there was a secondary stage in processing the steel from ingot into wootz, while on the other, it was more to the original process which carried into the wootz stage through the control of the temperatures and cooling.

Obviously still not fully understanding , can you guys clarify further?

Meanwhile, I think that the circumstances involving these processes in the mid to latter 19th century might give us better perspective on how this most subtle and thus 'mysterious' disappearance of such an ancient art might have happened virtually 'during broad daylight' of the steel industry itself in this 19th century period.

[Battara]

Here is some other information and a theory of why wootz disappeared.

Although the article is fascinating, the section near the end and the conclusion is not as technical.

Note: I met the author and talked with him at a show here in Louisville, KY, USA and was able to look at and handle one of his recreated wootz blades.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On one hand here it sounds like there was a secondary stage in processing the steel from ingot into wootz, while on the other, it was more to the original process which carried into the wootz stage through the control of the temperatures and cooling.

Obviously still not fully understanding , can you guys clarify further?

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Just a quick clarification. As I recall from Ann Feuerbach, Richard Furrer, and other smiths, the watering in wootz, or the dendritic structure, was inherent to the ingot. The structure is primarily due to the cooling rate of the crucible at the time of production. Nothing to do with forging method of the tool or blade. .................................................. .
Not all crucible steel ended with the crystalline pattern as there was a relatively high failure rate due to poor temperature control.

Emanual, my understanding is that crucible steel, if properly forged, could show a watered pattern, and the fact that not all crucible steel showed a watered pattern was due to the forging process not being done properly. You can not seperate the two things, just because the steel had the ability to show a watered pattern did not mean every item made from the crucible steel would show a watered pattern, it had to be forged in the right manner or the pattern would not show. The poor temperature control that kept the crucible steel item being forged from showing a watered pattern came during the forging process.

I other words, if just any blacksmith pounded out a blade from a hunk of crucible steel the blade would not show a watered pattern, it took someone with the exact knowledge to forge a blade that showed a watered pattern.

Here is an example that shows the complexity of reproducing the watered pattern using modern steel meant to replicate crucible steel.



Blades Guide to Making Knives, Joe Kertzman, 2012

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

+1.

As to the transmission of skills:
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?

Thus, between 1825 (potential peak of wootz blade forging) and 1900 in these countries there was a turnover of roughly 3 generations. That was on the background of catastrophic decline of wootz manufacture. Thus, there were not enough people living long enough to enter the apprentice pool and acquire skills without economic future; traditions just died out.

1) I have already given a historical source, proving that in Persia in the 1840s wootz produced (smelted)
2) I have given the information from historical sources that in the 1840s-1850s years in the Bukhara Khanate and Persia did wootz blades.

That means that it's not about the year 1825. Next question. In 1750, the year was a different life? People live longer? I doubt it. But I think this time (1750) - the peak of wootzsteel production.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. To craftsmanship preserved (for example, the production of blades from wootz) - needs constant demand. Until the 1880s, people from Central Asia buy many swords (blades) in Persia. After the Russian conquered Central Asia, the market disappeared.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by ariel

...
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?
...

cold stats. let us not forget that it is an average. people did not just suddenly die at that top 'average' age. the curve was horribly skewed by the very early deaths of many children. people who survived childhood had a much better chance of reaching their fourscore years plus ten.

...and what were the figure for earlier centuries? may have been similar or even worse...see:

(looks like it wasn't much different in earlier years.)

the kamis who forged steel were not high in the caste system, so their bite of the medical system apple was and still is even less. heck, even the west did not know about germs and antisepsis until the second half of the 19c. even london was a foul cesspit of human waste and decay until the great stink of 1858 forced parliament to start building proper sewers, not completed till the mid 1860's. note the improvement in health was not a factor, as they had no idea about germs, they just couldn't stand the smell any more.

if you just consider stats, the unintended consequence of building sewers in london caused the decline of wootz

[ariel]

Kronckew,
You are correct: child mortality skews the distribution curves to the right. But that's the only way we can get an idea of the life expectancy.

Estcrh,
Great quote! It takes time to learn wootz forging.
Many bladesmiths in Russia ( just an example I know about) have been dealing with wootz issue for more thn 20 years. Despite all the books, all the achievements of modern metallurgy, modern equipment etc, they are still incapable to reproduce Taban or Khorasan patterns that were routinely made by a barefoot Indian or Iranian in a primitive forge. The secrets of wootz ingot were revealed, but the methods of converting it into a blade still remain a mystery.

[Emanuel]

I hope our forum smiths do chime in on this. If you polish and etch an old wootz cake/ingot you see the pattern. No forging required. Wootz steel was indeed very high carbon content. I was not aware however that a crystalline structure could be induced through annealing. Grain size yes, but not the dendritic carbide structure.

Ariel I don't see the converting of wootz into a blade being still a mistery. Lots of smiths i Russia and the US and elsewhere do so now with great results

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

I hope our forum smiths do chime in on this. If you polish and etch an old wootz cake/ingot you see the pattern. No forging required.

Emanuel, I have never seen an old wootz cake so I could not respond to this but what happens once you start forging this old wootz cake, you can not make a blade from a polished and etched unforged wootz cake/ingot, it needs to be forged. Are you suggesting that anyone can forge a watered steel blade from it or did it take specialized knowledge in order to do this?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

If you polish and etch an old wootz cake/ingot you see the pattern. No forging required.

Yes, it is. And, too, there is about this in the articles of the 1840s.

[estcrh]

Microstructure of Steels and Cast Irons, Madeleine Durand-Charre, 2013

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent, and thank you guys again for responses to my questions. This discussion has truly developed dimensionally by the various and most salient angles you have all brought up.
While the original query tendered in this thread by Mahratt seemed to be rather straightforward and answerable in a similar response, it seemed to defy such an answer.

While it became almost frustratingly clear that a direct answer to the exact or defined disappearance of old wootz making skills was not exactly placeable to such a defined time, especially universal to all wootz locations, it has been fascinating to see all these angles and facets to the problem.

Mahratt, I must thank you for bringing up this most interesting topic, and for me, for prompting me to finally approach a subject I have admittedly long avoided. I also appreciate that you continue to reiterate the interactions between you and others posting as to the salient points you are discussing. Most helpful to keep the thread topic on course.

Ariel, I really liked the factor you brought up as plausibly being associated in this situation, that of life span and generation diminishing of skills in accord with that of demand. While the pro and con of this theory were of course addressed , it is fascinating to see critical thinking and well presented responses placed........this is true historical detection, and all of you guys carry it through perfectly!

Emanuel and Estrcrh, again thank you guys for your patient and most intriguing explanations and descriptions on the actual wootz making processes.......I think I really am starting to understand this stuff!

Estcrh, you continue to amaze me at your incredible abilities at locating all these articles and material and posting the segments here, thank you!

Outstanding work everyone!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All, There is compelling evidence from all quarters in this very excellent thread for reasoned thoughts on the decline of Wootz including the invasion of central Asia thus the drop in demand..and the demographic detail illustrated graphically on the suspected demise of participants...I believe all of them. I suggest one was the trigger (drop in demand) and the other caused the specialty to vanish.(see paragraph 3 below)

On the demise of Wootz in particular I would point to the traditional aspect in craftsmanship of taking the children into a apprenticeship routine from a very young age and passing them out at about 16 years old as fully trained artesans. This means that the graph illustrated above is not so much floored but enhanced since the apprentice age factor or the point in the graph between perhaps 5 and 10 years old (at the point the Wootz making stops) breaks the traditional passing down of the technique... and destroys the apprenticeship concept. Thus as Ariel points out ..."It Withers".

How quickly can a passed down tradition vanish?... Take the Omani Weaving specialization which all but vanished and except for the intervention my one single individual it would have sunk without trace. The same could be said about silver-making in Oman when the leader of the country had to intervene by having at least one son of the silver-maker learn the apprenticeship... It is therefor very easy to lose these traditional methods very quickly since the apprentice window is very narrow and in particular when they are not written down. It would appear that Wootz blade manufacture fell under similar constraints. Without the demand and then without the apprenticeships the art was lost.

In support of the very quickly lost art of Wootz manufacturing please see http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom...even-9809.html
( also noted at #132 by Emanuel)
Quote."The smiths that produced the high-quality blades would most likely have kept the process for making these blades a closely guarded secret to be passed on only to their apprentices".Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.