When in India "died" wootz?

ariel · 18th February 2016, 11:50 PM

Jim,
As to your interest in Iranian manufacture of wootz ( fulad), the best source is of course Khorasani's book "Arms and Armor from Iran". He meticulously cites publeshed literature on each and every subject.

On the subject of interest to you, he reviews a book by Willem Floor "Traditional crafts in Qajar Iran (1800-1925)", Costa Mesa, Mazda Publishers, 2003.

In it , he cites information obtained by de Rochechuart, a secretary of the French Embassy in Iran around 1860 and also by somebody called Olmer ( exact credentials not mentioned).

Olmer reported that only few " damasceners" were left in Isfaghan at his time. The only workshop he was able to find were 4 or 5 people working in a small room in caravanserai., and they seldom crafted swords.
He also reported that in India damask ( wootz) was still manufactured.
This was the so-called " Shah Aqbar" wootz.

Khorasan wootz: both report that all kilns were destoyed by Nader Shah

Neiriz, Shiraz and Arsanjan wootz: both report that the manufacture of it ceased during Safavid dynasty.

Isfaghan wootz: local workers said that all ingots came from Khorasan ( see above. Likely, also Indian). Earlier, Khorasani reviews Biswas, who discussed the issue in 1823 with a trader named Haj Hossein from Isfaghan, who said that wootz was imported there from India, and that Iranians tried to imitate it without success.

Khorasani further reviews accounts of multiple travelers and natives between 12 and 19 centuries. All report withessing making of blades in Iran, but nobody ever mentioned witnessing or getting any information on actual manufacture of wootz ingots.

This does not mean that there were no solitary foci of wootz-making in Iran, but likely most of them also went the way of Dodo by the mid-19 century.

We already know what happened in India.

As to the inscriptions, Khorasani not unreasonably states that by the mid-19 century Iranians rarely manufactured shamshirs and the quality of work went down precipitously. Instead, they put inlaid seals and cartouches on old high quality shamshir blades, and that explains the profusion of Qajar-inscribed blades of the highest quality.

In the same vein, as we have discussed earlier, demise of any trade is accompanied by the disappearance of its work force. Nobody wants to learn a difficult and time-consuming process of wootz forging in the absence of demand for the final product. Thus, while it might be possible to find an occasional low-quality newly made wootz blade in , say, 1870-1880, even 10-20 years later it would be virtually unrealistic. The beautiful wootz daggers from Central Asian Khanates ( the last source of wootz weapons in European museums) given to the Tsars were just reworked and garishly decorated old Persian pesh-kabzes and kards.

I specifically wish to address Emanuel's suggestion that small pockets of bladesmiths capable of forging wootz blades might have been preserved by the Rajas. It would be strange, IMHO, for a Raja to collect newly made swords without history and of a purportedly low quality ( vs. truly old samples).

But I went over Elgoods book describing swords and daggers of Jaipur court.

There are plenty of very complex wootz daggers and long bladed weapons dated first half of 19 century or earlier. I could not find a single wootz khanjar or saber from the second half of the 19th century: all plain steel. There were a couple of katars with small insertions of wootz segments, but that was all. Correct me if I am wrong. I guess, Indian Rajas might have supported local masters, but there were no longer any worthy wootz specialists at that time.

Yes, I know, it was long :-)))

mahratt · 19th February 2016, 04:34 AM

About the book mr. Khorasani "Arms and Armor from Iran". I think that mr. Khorasani do not know the Russian language and do not read books by Russian authors published in the 19th century (By the way, this does not make the book mr. Khorasani less good. This is an interesting book. Although, it is like any book have controversial moments). This is normal. You can not know everything. Very few Russian books in the 19th century was translated into English and French. Although the Russian travelers, merchants, officers and diplomats were in the 19th century in Persia more often and longer the British and especially the French (it's easy to explain - Russian a little closer to Persian than the UK and France).

I did not write "everywhere in Persia in the 1850s did a lot of years of wootz blades." I'm talking about the fact that the manufacture of blades from wootz seen Russian in Tehran. And what they said casually, not seeing it as something wonderful. That is, it was for their not strange and startling.

Until the 1880s, demand for the wootz blades in Central Asia - very high. And apparently, the main demand was for the blades of swords. Why until 1880s? Because only in the 1880s Russian troops seized the fortress Turkmen Gkok Tepe. It was only in the 1880s Turkmen tribes (Tekins) were disarmed. Turkomans were not able to do wootz blades themselves and bought them in Persia (in mid-late 19 centry).
It makes sense to write in the blade, which is made in the 19th century: "Made in 1750, the year." This makes the blade more valuable. It makes no sense to write in the blade, made in the 18th century or early 19th century: "made in 1870".

Regarding damask in India in the 19th century. R. Elgood book - an excellent book. But I think in India is not only the arsenal in Jaipur ....

Also, as modern collectors, any Raja had to appreciate more older blades (IMHO)

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2016, 05:50 AM

Ariel, thank you for taking the time to assemble the very detailed synopsis on the material which has come from the book by Manoucher. I have not seen the book, but it seems to have remarkably cited references which provide interesting perspective on the manufacturing of wootz blades in Iran.
Good point on the demise of the quality and nature of a certain trade such as production of wootz and it would seem of the blades as well. It does seem we see evidence of that disappointing phenomenon around us constantly, despite advances in technology.

As I have noted, this subject is admittedly outside my usual scope of study, but I find it very interesting, and I am learning considerably thanks to the core discussion here and those who have entered relevant observations and notes.

Returning to the original topic of wootz production in India, it seems curious to me that a considerable number* of the works of European scientists and writers who were studying and trying to duplicate the significant character of Indian wootz were writing in the beginning to near mid 19th century. With the profound British presence in India throughout the regions noted for their wootz production , why would they not have simply visited and observed and analyzed these processes?
Is it possible that the known locations in Hyderabad, Deccani areas, Mysore, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and others had indeed exhausted sources of ore, in addition to depletion of work forces and had indeed ceased?
This is I think one of the things that seems to evade specific mention in the references.

* I observed this in a lengthy bibliography in an article on Indian wootz online

In the often cited article on wootz (Damascus) steels by Verhoefen, he suggests that the last blades of 'high quality' damascene patterns is uncertain, but probably would range to about c. 1750.

While perhaps the notation of 'high' quality might suggest that the continued blade production may have been lesser quality, but it does not specify, nor note that it had ceased.

It seems the problem of identifying the more defined range of the end of the production of wootz in India in the conventional manner in which it had been produced since ancient times in extremely problematic .

Again, I think that perhaps a more direct answer to this question may reside within the text of the apparently considerable references that are listed in volume in many of these articles and books.

I really do appreciate the efforts placed here in discussing this, and must say it has encouraged me personally to try to look further into those.
As Mahratt has well noted, one cannot know everything......I guess that's why we keep looking

mahratt · 19th February 2016, 07:19 AM

I found another interesting article in 1842. It's called: "Notes on forged wootz steel in Bukhara". The author - Colonel of the Russian army - Butenev. The author writes that according to his information wootz in Bukhara Khanate unknown how to smelt. But of imported wootz - made blades. Wootz brought to Bukhara (according to him) from Persia.

ariel · 19th February 2016, 10:58 AM

Jim,
India is currently #4 producer of steel in the world. Iron ore is plentiful there.
Thus, I do not think that wootz production 200 years ago ceased because of the exhaustion of raw materials. Rather , the need in wootz and the skills in making it must have vanished. Of course, British industrial policies did not help either:-)

mahratt · 19th February 2016, 12:38 PM

Jim,
I always thought that not every iron ore is suitable for the production of wootz steel ... Maybe I'm wrong. Correct me please.

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2016, 03:42 PM

Good points Ariel, the exhaustion or depletion of iron ore in one location would not preclude further deposits in other regions. So then we return to the abandonment of the skills required in processing the wootz..
If the demand for the regular forms of steel in accord with the development of British industry in India became the primary demand, then of course the skilled workers in wootz would have diminished.

Mahratt, that is an interesting thought, and again, I am very much a novice at metallurgy so bear with me. While it does seem possible that ore may have differences in its content, I had thought that the processing of wootz had more to do with the manner of smelting. The methods of placement in crucibles with the ore and other components, temperatures and cooling as well as the carburizing components...wood, leaves etc. seem to have varied in the different locations producing wootz.

I know there are some very knowledgeable metallurgists and skilled metal workers in our ranks here in addition to you guys and those who have already entered here, so maybe they might add some perspective as well.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th February 2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
India is currently #4 producer of steel in the world. Iron ore is plentiful there.
Thus, I do not think that wootz production 200 years ago ceased because of the exhaustion of raw materials. Rather , the need in wootz and the skills in making it must have vanished. Of course, British industrial policies did not help either:-)

Salaams Ariel I think that is a fair comment and supported by According to Vibha Tripathi on;

http://www.ghadar.in/gjh_html/?q=con...eel-metallurgy

Quote“With industrialization and imperial designs of foreign rule a decline set in…….. The iron industry could not withstand the onslaught of the colonial forces working against its interests in a planned way. Once the blast furnaces came into existence in Britain, production started at a much cheaper rate…It could hardly compete with the cheap British pig iron being imported. ….

The laws enforcing non-felling of trees in the forest deprived the charcoal based indigenous iron industry of its very basic raw material. It made production of iron impossible.

The powerful lobby in Britain succeeded.” The colonizers succeeded in enslaving the Indian sub-continent in every sense of the word by systematically destroying the manufacturing capacity of India.

Both the authors also ascribe the decline to the reluctance of master craftsmen to document the technological secrets and to share the knowledge with others except with their favored apprentices. Hence some of the technologies could not be developed further and declined with the decline of the fortunes of the select group of families who knew the process secrets".Unquote.

see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_furnace

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

18th February 2016, 11:50 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, As to your interest in Iranian manufacture of wootz ( fulad), the best source is of course Khorasani's book "Arms and Armor from Iran". He meticulously cites publeshed literature on each and every subject. On the subject of interest to you, he reviews a book by Willem Floor "Traditional crafts in Qajar Iran (1800-1925)", Costa Mesa, Mazda Publishers, 2003. In it , he cites information obtained by de Rochechuart, a secretary of the French Embassy in Iran around 1860 and also by somebody called Olmer ( exact credentials not mentioned). Olmer reported that only few " damasceners" were left in Isfaghan at his time. The only workshop he was able to find were 4 or 5 people working in a small room in caravanserai., and they seldom crafted swords. He also reported that in India damask ( wootz) was still manufactured. This was the so-called " Shah Aqbar" wootz. Khorasan wootz: both report that all kilns were destoyed by Nader Shah Neiriz, Shiraz and Arsanjan wootz: both report that the manufacture of it ceased during Safavid dynasty. Isfaghan wootz: local workers said that all ingots came from Khorasan ( see above. Likely, also Indian). Earlier, Khorasani reviews Biswas, who discussed the issue in 1823 with a trader named Haj Hossein from Isfaghan, who said that wootz was imported there from India, and that Iranians tried to imitate it without success. Khorasani further reviews accounts of multiple travelers and natives between 12 and 19 centuries. All report withessing making of blades in Iran, but nobody ever mentioned witnessing or getting any information on actual manufacture of wootz ingots. This does not mean that there were no solitary foci of wootz-making in Iran, but likely most of them also went the way of Dodo by the mid-19 century. We already know what happened in India. As to the inscriptions, Khorasani not unreasonably states that by the mid-19 century Iranians rarely manufactured shamshirs and the quality of work went down precipitously. Instead, they put inlaid seals and cartouches on old high quality shamshir blades, and that explains the profusion of Qajar-inscribed blades of the highest quality. In the same vein, as we have discussed earlier, demise of any trade is accompanied by the disappearance of its work force. Nobody wants to learn a difficult and time-consuming process of wootz forging in the absence of demand for the final product. Thus, while it might be possible to find an occasional low-quality newly made wootz blade in , say, 1870-1880, even 10-20 years later it would be virtually unrealistic. The beautiful wootz daggers from Central Asian Khanates ( the last source of wootz weapons in European museums) given to the Tsars were just reworked and garishly decorated old Persian pesh-kabzes and kards. I specifically wish to address Emanuel's suggestion that small pockets of bladesmiths capable of forging wootz blades might have been preserved by the Rajas. It would be strange, IMHO, for a Raja to collect newly made swords without history and of a purportedly low quality ( vs. truly old samples). But I went over Elgoods book describing swords and daggers of Jaipur court. There are plenty of very complex wootz daggers and long bladed weapons dated first half of 19 century or earlier. I could not find a single wootz khanjar or saber from the second half of the 19th century: all plain steel. There were a couple of katars with small insertions of wootz segments, but that was all. Correct me if I am wrong. I guess, Indian Rajas might have supported local masters, but there were no longer any worthy wootz specialists at that time. Yes, I know, it was long :-))) Last edited by ariel; 19th February 2016 at 12:01 AM.

19th February 2016, 04:34 AM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	About the book mr. Khorasani "Arms and Armor from Iran". I think that mr. Khorasani do not know the Russian language and do not read books by Russian authors published in the 19th century (By the way, this does not make the book mr. Khorasani less good. This is an interesting book. Although, it is like any book have controversial moments). This is normal. You can not know everything. Very few Russian books in the 19th century was translated into English and French. Although the Russian travelers, merchants, officers and diplomats were in the 19th century in Persia more often and longer the British and especially the French (it's easy to explain - Russian a little closer to Persian than the UK and France). I did not write "everywhere in Persia in the 1850s did a lot of years of wootz blades." I'm talking about the fact that the manufacture of blades from wootz seen Russian in Tehran. And what they said casually, not seeing it as something wonderful. That is, it was for their not strange and startling. Until the 1880s, demand for the wootz blades in Central Asia - very high. And apparently, the main demand was for the blades of swords. Why until 1880s? Because only in the 1880s Russian troops seized the fortress Turkmen Gkok Tepe. It was only in the 1880s Turkmen tribes (Tekins) were disarmed. Turkomans were not able to do wootz blades themselves and bought them in Persia (in mid-late 19 centry). It makes sense to write in the blade, which is made in the 19th century: "Made in 1750, the year." This makes the blade more valuable. It makes no sense to write in the blade, made in the 18th century or early 19th century: "made in 1870". Regarding damask in India in the 19th century. R. Elgood book - an excellent book. But I think in India is not only the arsenal in Jaipur .... Also, as modern collectors, any Raja had to appreciate more older blades (IMHO) Last edited by mahratt; 19th February 2016 at 06:48 AM.

19th February 2016, 05:50 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel, thank you for taking the time to assemble the very detailed synopsis on the material which has come from the book by Manoucher. I have not seen the book, but it seems to have remarkably cited references which provide interesting perspective on the manufacturing of wootz blades in Iran. Good point on the demise of the quality and nature of a certain trade such as production of wootz and it would seem of the blades as well. It does seem we see evidence of that disappointing phenomenon around us constantly, despite advances in technology. As I have noted, this subject is admittedly outside my usual scope of study, but I find it very interesting, and I am learning considerably thanks to the core discussion here and those who have entered relevant observations and notes. Returning to the original topic of wootz production in India, it seems curious to me that a considerable number* of the works of European scientists and writers who were studying and trying to duplicate the significant character of Indian wootz were writing in the beginning to near mid 19th century. With the profound British presence in India throughout the regions noted for their wootz production , why would they not have simply visited and observed and analyzed these processes? Is it possible that the known locations in Hyderabad, Deccani areas, Mysore, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and others had indeed exhausted sources of ore, in addition to depletion of work forces and had indeed ceased? This is I think one of the things that seems to evade specific mention in the references. * I observed this in a lengthy bibliography in an article on Indian wootz online In the often cited article on wootz (Damascus) steels by Verhoefen, he suggests that the last blades of 'high quality' damascene patterns is uncertain, but probably would range to about c. 1750. While perhaps the notation of 'high' quality might suggest that the continued blade production may have been lesser quality, but it does not specify, nor note that it had ceased. It seems the problem of identifying the more defined range of the end of the production of wootz in India in the conventional manner in which it had been produced since ancient times in extremely problematic . Again, I think that perhaps a more direct answer to this question may reside within the text of the apparently considerable references that are listed in volume in many of these articles and books. I really do appreciate the efforts placed here in discussing this, and must say it has encouraged me personally to try to look further into those. As Mahratt has well noted, one cannot know everything......I guess that's why we keep looking

19th February 2016, 07:19 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I found another interesting article in 1842. It's called: "Notes on forged wootz steel in Bukhara". The author - Colonel of the Russian army - Butenev. The author writes that according to his information wootz in Bukhara Khanate unknown how to smelt. But of imported wootz - made blades. Wootz brought to Bukhara (according to him) from Persia. Attached Images

19th February 2016, 10:58 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, India is currently #4 producer of steel in the world. Iron ore is plentiful there. Thus, I do not think that wootz production 200 years ago ceased because of the exhaustion of raw materials. Rather , the need in wootz and the skills in making it must have vanished. Of course, British industrial policies did not help either:-)

19th February 2016, 12:38 PM	#6
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Jim, I always thought that not every iron ore is suitable for the production of wootz steel ... Maybe I'm wrong. Correct me please.

19th February 2016, 03:42 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Good points Ariel, the exhaustion or depletion of iron ore in one location would not preclude further deposits in other regions. So then we return to the abandonment of the skills required in processing the wootz.. If the demand for the regular forms of steel in accord with the development of British industry in India became the primary demand, then of course the skilled workers in wootz would have diminished. Mahratt, that is an interesting thought, and again, I am very much a novice at metallurgy so bear with me. While it does seem possible that ore may have differences in its content, I had thought that the processing of wootz had more to do with the manner of smelting. The methods of placement in crucibles with the ore and other components, temperatures and cooling as well as the carburizing components...wood, leaves etc. seem to have varied in the different locations producing wootz. I know there are some very knowledgeable metallurgists and skilled metal workers in our ranks here in addition to you guys and those who have already entered here, so maybe they might add some perspective as well.