keris blade for comment.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

[Rick]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....

Here's how it went down :

Tom :
" This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing. "

Nechesh :
" Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials. "

Tom:
" Cap'n Welcome to the wonderful world of taking care of antiques in front of people; there is nothing you can do or refrain from doing that someone won't complain about bitterly, so don't get too 'sturbed. I continue to congratulate you on a job well done, and believe that though it might've liked to hear some nice songs or prayers while being cleaned, you've otherwise kept quite well enough to the native ways of the piece. Battery acid may not be as yummie as fruit juice, but since it does the same thing, may I suggest it is more like a vitamen pill than a poison one? Otherwise, it's just what a native would do if he could afford to, and I can only add that it would've been good to sharpen it while you were sanding. kudos. "

Nechesh :
" Gee Tom, can't say i see much "bitterness" in my comments. I was just stating my opinion, much the same as you were. "

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Guys , I certainly hope that you can possibly settle your differences via PM (personal message) I would be quite unhappy to see this thread get ugly .

If this is not an option for you then I would politely suggest that you both "explore the function of the 'Ignore' feature" to quote an esteemed moderator on this forum .

[BSMStar]

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Smashy...

OK, I am thinking about doing the insane. I have a Javanese Keris (a gift from a dear friend) that has seen much better days. It has some rust and all of the black is gone.

I basically want to follow your process, but instead of using traditional Warangan, I am going to try Potassium Sulfide. Can you send me you procedure and I will post my process, with the step-by-step pictures (if it comes out good or bad). My only concern is how black the blade will be... and will the nickel stay bright.

Are you out there?

[Rick]

Hi BSM ,
My two cents worth of advice to you would be to treat and gently remove the rust . As for trying different and untraditional chemicals on a Jawa keris ; if I were you I would ascertain the age , quality , and value (not necessarily monetary) of such a blade before undertaking such a project . There are places that you can send the blade to have a traditional staining job done .

Smashy's piece is a Bali keris , smooth ; but your Jawa blade is likely rough . Please try to remember that these are cultural artifacts and one's responsibility as a collector is to "First do no harm" and as cultural artifacts they are due a certain amount of respect .

Now if you know for a fact that this blade of yours is a piece made to sell to the Western market and it is a piece of crap to boot then that may change things ; but PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

[tom hyle]

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

[capt.smash]

HI BSMStar show some pics of the blade or PM me some and we can discuss what to do

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Again, as I said about the disintegrated one; that may be true; it may be over etched, but I'm not sure (have you specific knowledge?) why you think that wasn't done within its native setting? I have seen Java k(e)ris so overwashed and moreso many times, and pretty usually ID'd (not usually by k[e]ris sellers, as I don't much buy k[e]ris) as traditionally washed, just for many years, and perhaps "too many" (for however we can identify that) times.

Hi Tom,

This picture came out of Java. That is why I suspected it was done on purpose to "age" the blade. I believe it is a newly made blade of "low" quality... but it did not deserve to be treated like that (I am sure with the intent to push it off as an old blade if it worked ).

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi BSM ,
PLEASE look at the ruined blade at the top of this page . That , to the best of my knowledge , is a 450 year old blade , it belongs to me and every time I look at it a great sadness comes over me for the desecration it has endured .

Hi Rick,

Remember my thread on the possible Pajajaran keris? It's likely to be 600 to 800 years old. I'll share a towel with you.

I have no intention to allow this to happen to even a "junker" keris. If it is a keris worth saving, it is an object worth respecting... and to not allow that kind of damage to occur by my action. I am confident in what I can do... but the stain.