Sword for identification

Pertinax · Yesterday, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hello this looks like a souvenir sword probably from iran, georgia has such tourist items too but theyed get the cyrillic correct or put georgian script.

the false damascus pattern and the shape of the blade are pretty typical of such items form iran.

but the pictures and weird text are very strange typically it iwll be islamic phrases and to be sold to muslim pilgrim-tourists in markets
it appears to be fake Cyrillic.. most likely this was made to sell to russian tourists. the text is an attempt at mimic cyrillic text.

no person in the caucasus in a muslim population would make such a text and intend it to be arabic as any mullah or other such religious person able to write at all or any person buying the item for such a purpose could read arabic if not understand it they recognized the letters. and anyone who attended a madrassa could read and write it. they can just copy a phrase from a koran under the instruction of somebody who did if they didnt understand it.

id say it falls into the category of those weird tourist "weapons" sold in iran and india,

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

ausjulius · Today, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

Hi Yuri, yes I know the text has nothing to do with cyrillic . It is just random shaped by a person who can't ready cyrillic.
It is like the European mediaeval fantasy text Mongolian writing in art or the fantasy text Latin scrip gibberish on some Chinese made guns or the "puma" " Adidas" or "made in France" nonsence you see on some Soviet prison knives blades. It is simply a cheaply made souvenir fantasy item. Like the cheap Zulfiqars you could buy or others I have seen many just like your one with iron handles and thin floppy blunt tipped blades hist as this. Shallow arabic writing acot etched. Fake Damascus patters. Just as yours. The difference is the weird images on the blade. But this is not a mystery weapon from some missing culture. It's just a souvenir item made in persia

Ian · Today, 09:47 AM

ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.

Jim McDougall · Today, 04:05 PM

Perfectly said Ian, and I very much agree, Yuri has presented very well supported research and views which concur elementally with Oliver's observations. Frankly his perspectives on arms, especially Caucasian, reflect many decades of tenacious research and experience and render them in my opinion, essentially irrefutable.

The often cavalier use or application of the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms to many examples of ethnographic weapons fails to recognize the traditional use of many forms authentically in various cultural and religious contexts.

Anecdotally, one similar instance comes from the weapons of the Mahdist era in Sudan with bold thuluth calligraphy acid etched on many weapons, most notably the ubiquitous kaskara broadswords. For many years these were dismissed as souvenirs brought back by British soldiers from the campaigns there from there ended largely with Omdurman (1898). The acid etched script was deemed mostly an 'arabesque' application and thought of course, 'jibberish'. In the example posted, as not personally initiated in the Arabic language, I can only presume the content of the script in this example.

Despite the usual consternation, research has revealed that this script, often indeed used in a decorative sense in certain situations, was in fact a more elementary form (more familiar to those not necessarily literate). Actually there are actual Quranic phrases etc. used in repetition, and in many cases other authentic invocations entwined in similar manner.

The point is that while not exclusively the case, the larger number of these weapons were indeed authentically in use by Ansar tribesmen, and the assessment of the inscriptions based on assumption were largely invalid.

In the case of this sword, its likely use as an element of important stature in the Sacred Ceremony of Shi'a Faith, and the variations in inscription character can be well explained circumstantially.

Pertinax · Today, 04:56 PM

If you have any difficulties downloading the article, please:

Today, 04:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Perfectly said Ian, and I very much agree, Yuri has presented very well supported research and views which concur elementally with Oliver's observations. Frankly his perspectives on arms, especially Caucasian, reflect many decades of tenacious research and experience and render them in my opinion, essentially irrefutable. The often cavalier use or application of the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms to many examples of ethnographic weapons fails to recognize the traditional use of many forms authentically in various cultural and religious contexts. Anecdotally, one similar instance comes from the weapons of the Mahdist era in Sudan with bold thuluth calligraphy acid etched on many weapons, most notably the ubiquitous kaskara broadswords. For many years these were dismissed as souvenirs brought back by British soldiers from the campaigns there from there ended largely with Omdurman (1898). The acid etched script was deemed mostly an 'arabesque' application and thought of course, 'jibberish'. In the example posted, as not personally initiated in the Arabic language, I can only presume the content of the script in this example. Despite the usual consternation, research has revealed that this script, often indeed used in a decorative sense in certain situations, was in fact a more elementary form (more familiar to those not necessarily literate). Actually there are actual Quranic phrases etc. used in repetition, and in many cases other authentic invocations entwined in similar manner. The point is that while not exclusively the case, the larger number of these weapons were indeed authentically in use by Ansar tribesmen, and the assessment of the inscriptions based on assumption were largely invalid. In the case of this sword, its likely use as an element of important stature in the Sacred Ceremony of Shi'a Faith, and the variations in inscription character can be well explained circumstantially. Attached Images

Today, 09:47 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,398	ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.