Sword for identification

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Pertinax]

More photos

[Tim Simmons]

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

[Tim Simmons]

Seems to be a well known combination. I thought this is a good interpretation. As I said I am probably way off and wrong. Just another way of looking at the possible origins of the sword.

[Tim Simmons]

Surely we must be looking at a long eared owl. The other things look like human bird transformation? Could the man on the grip be Amirani Georgian hero? he has a dog Q'ursha. Cannot find anything about an owl but some stuff about eagles. Transformation in the myths could be to an owl. Just having some fun on a wet and windy holiday.

[tomato77]

I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by tomato77

I can't help but be reminded of a Husa Khampa from Tibet even though the inscriptions obviously point in a totally different direction. Take a look at mine: It somehow got several similar features in overall shape.
Best
Thomas

Привет Томас!
Когда я приобретал этот меч он был заявлен как – тибетский церемониальный меч типа «дпа’дам», но в дальнейшем в ходе обсуждений эта версия не подтвердилась. На форуме присутствуют эксперты по Тибету, Китаю, Кавказу, Востоку которые принимали участие в прошлом обсуждении. Я надеюсь, что они выскажут свои версии.
Hello Thomas!

When I acquired this sword, he was declared as a Tibetan ceremonial sword of the dpa’dam, but in the future, during the discussion, this version was not confirmed. On the forum there are experts on Tibet, China, the Caucasus, the east of which took part in the last discussion. I hope they will express their versions.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The imagery on this is fascinating. I am probably wrong but on the blade I see a wolf and an owl then a human like figure. On the grip I see a man with hat and moustache on the pommel end a devil figure near the hilt. Trying to find folklore with wolf and owl symbolism led me to Caucasian Albania. There is a Caucasian script with similar letters (scripts could depend on how faithfully they are represented) It appears that the wolf and owl has some relevance in Albania even if a different country. The symbolism is easily understood strength wisdom protection and guardianship from the devil. One way of looking at it.

Привет Тим!
Большое спасибо, очень интересная версия. Я, к сожалению, не владею английским языком, поэтому пользуюсь переводчиком. В стране, где я живу нет термина Кавказская Албания. Где этот регион находится?

Hello Tim!
Thank you very much, very interesting version. Unfortunately, I do not speak English, so I use a translator. In the country where I live there is no term Caucasian Albania. Where is this region located?

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

More photos

hello this looks like a souvenir sword probably from iran, georgia has such tourist items too but theyed get the cyrillic correct or put georgian script.

the false damascus pattern and the shape of the blade are pretty typical of such items form iran.

but the pictures and weird text are very strange typically it iwll be islamic phrases and to be sold to muslim pilgrim-tourists in markets
it appears to be fake Cyrillic.. most likely this was made to sell to russian tourists. the text is an attempt at mimic cyrillic text.

no person in the caucasus in a muslim population would make such a text and intend it to be arabic as any mullah or other such religious person able to write at all or any person buying the item for such a purpose could read arabic if not understand it they recognized the letters. and anyone who attended a madrassa could read and write it. they can just copy a phrase from a koran under the instruction of somebody who did if they didnt understand it.

id say it falls into the category of those weird tourist "weapons" sold in iran and india,

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

hello this looks like a souvenir sword probably from iran, georgia has such tourist items too but theyed get the cyrillic correct or put georgian script.

the false damascus pattern and the shape of the blade are pretty typical of such items form iran.

but the pictures and weird text are very strange typically it iwll be islamic phrases and to be sold to muslim pilgrim-tourists in markets
it appears to be fake Cyrillic.. most likely this was made to sell to russian tourists. the text is an attempt at mimic cyrillic text.

no person in the caucasus in a muslim population would make such a text and intend it to be arabic as any mullah or other such religious person able to write at all or any person buying the item for such a purpose could read arabic if not understand it they recognized the letters. and anyone who attended a madrassa could read and write it. they can just copy a phrase from a koran under the instruction of somebody who did if they didnt understand it.

id say it falls into the category of those weird tourist "weapons" sold in iran and india,

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Pertinax

Hi ausjulius.

The text has nothing to do with Cyrillic. The letters H, E, Р in the text are both in Cyrillic and in the Latin alphabet, some letters resemble ancient Armenian and Ethiopian.

The item is not for sale and not for tourists.

If you have examples of such "tourist weapons" - show them.

I recommend reading:

Malozyomova E. I. Holodnoe oruzhie i ritual'no-teatralizovannye predstavlenija v Irane [Edged Weapons and Ritualized Theatrical Performances in Iran]. Is-toricheskoe oruzhievedenie [Weapons History Journal], № 8, pp. 151 — 189.

https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co.../io_8_2020.pdf

Best regards,
Yuri

Hi Yuri, yes I know the text has nothing to do with cyrillic . It is just random shaped by a person who can't ready cyrillic.
It is like the European mediaeval fantasy text Mongolian writing in art or the fantasy text Latin scrip gibberish on some Chinese made guns or the "puma" " Adidas" or "made in France" nonsence you see on some Soviet prison knives blades. It is simply a cheaply made souvenir fantasy item. Like the cheap Zulfiqars you could buy or others I have seen many just like your one with iron handles and thin floppy blunt tipped blades hist as this. Shallow arabic writing acot etched. Fake Damascus patters. Just as yours. The difference is the weird images on the blade. But this is not a mystery weapon from some missing culture. It's just a souvenir item made in persia

[Ian]

ausjulius, I see where you are coming from. However, Yuri has gone to some trouble to show us why this isn't "just another tourist piece." While the workmanship is low quality, Yuri has identified a particular Shi'ite association that is interesting and seemingly well substantiated. That places his sword within the sphere of an ethnographic item used within a particular culture for a particular purpose, and not primarily made for sale to outsiders.

[Jim McDougall]

Perfectly said Ian, and I very much agree, Yuri has presented very well supported research and views which concur elementally with Oliver's observations. Frankly his perspectives on arms, especially Caucasian, reflect many decades of tenacious research and experience and render them in my opinion, essentially irrefutable.

The often cavalier use or application of the 'tourist' or 'souvenir' terms to many examples of ethnographic weapons fails to recognize the traditional use of many forms authentically in various cultural and religious contexts.

Anecdotally, one similar instance comes from the weapons of the Mahdist era in Sudan with bold thuluth calligraphy acid etched on many weapons, most notably the ubiquitous kaskara broadswords. For many years these were dismissed as souvenirs brought back by British soldiers from the campaigns there from there ended largely with Omdurman (1898). The acid etched script was deemed mostly an 'arabesque' application and thought of course, 'jibberish'. In the example posted, as not personally initiated in the Arabic language, I can only presume the content of the script in this example.

Despite the usual consternation, research has revealed that this script, often indeed used in a decorative sense in certain situations, was in fact a more elementary form (more familiar to those not necessarily literate). Actually there are actual Quranic phrases etc. used in repetition, and in many cases other authentic invocations entwined in similar manner.

The point is that while not exclusively the case, the larger number of these weapons were indeed authentically in use by Ansar tribesmen, and the assessment of the inscriptions based on assumption were largely invalid.

In the case of this sword, its likely use as an element of important stature in the Sacred Ceremony of Shi'a Faith, and the variations in inscription character can be well explained circumstantially.

[Pertinax]

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