Saif, Moroccan saif, sife, nimcha, nimsha

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2025, 07:36 AM

Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear.
These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability.
The Brotherhood? of course!

Pertinax · 18th May 2025, 05:22 PM

Hi Jim!

I thought you might find it interesting, you can download it for free:
https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co...ie-Nomer-1.pdf

JOURNAL OF THE SOCIETY OF HISTORICAL WEAPONS
HISTORICAL WEAPONS No. 1 2015
EDUARD von LENZ
A FEW WORDS ABOUT ANCIENT COLD WEAPONS
Page 150-151

IV. Italian Masters. "Gurda".
The Italian masters, in contrast to the Solingen and German masters in general, comparatively rarely branded their blades, and if they did, they usually used small marks of a simple form (Fig. 11), which, as far as is known, belonged to the workshops of the cities of Genoa, Brescia, Milan and Belluno and did not constitute the personal property of certain masters.

P.s. If you have any difficulties with the translation, let me know and I will help.

Pertinax · 18th May 2025, 06:11 PM

Italian Masters. "Gurda"

Jim McDougall · 20th May 2025, 05:30 AM

Thank you so much Yuri! I could not open this due to restrictions, but Im familiar with the work of Lenz from ZWHK.
Interesting note on the term 'gurda' which I am familiar with as the term for the 'Genoan' sickle marks copied on Chechen sword blades in the Caucusus.
These and other markings were copied on these blades, likely from Genoan trade ports in the Black Sea.

The subject of markings as applied by distinct makers in Italy is daunting as there was a great deal of spurious use by others, and the variations of some of the more ubiquitous Italian marks seem to be used in unusual configurations and pairings. The marca mosca, and 'pi' marks seen in the plate you show do not appear to belong to a particular maker.

Genoa was primarily a port of export, and the so called 'sickle' marks, though used by various blade making locations in North Italy, again sometimes in unusual variation, became deemed 'Genoan' as that was where they came from. These and many of the other markings noted became copied on blades in Germany and Styria, as well as other locations, and often it is hard to determine a blades origin by focus on markings.

Often makers worked in the shops of other makers, such as the noted Ferrara brothers, who though working in the forge of a maker in Belluno, with the name of Andrea Ferrara becoming legendary. The consternation regarding this is well known, but as far as known, no blades by him and marked as such are known (obviously there have been some suggested).

Another conundrum are the blades of CAINO. Again widely copied, it is unclear if by two makers named Caino (separate locations) or perhaps the city of Caino (near Milan) . Blades have the name Caino and various marks (M over an S, or over a mark).....but most distinctively typically have strange groupings of letters, often sequenced, that seem to be acrostics or some coded letter combinations.

These are a few of the mysterious markings, names etc. that turn up on blades that have entered the trade networks which have supplied many cultural spheres, and have circulated for generations if not even centuries.

This is what makes these ethnographic weapons so fascinating, and thank you for keeping this thread so interesting.

Pertinax · 20th May 2025, 07:15 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;297519]Thank you so much Yuri! I could not open this due to restrictions, but Im familiar with the work of Lenz from ZWHK.

Jim, this is the full text of the log.
If you have any difficulties, let me know, I'll be happy to help.

gp · 21st May 2025, 11:04 PM

error

18th May 2025, 06:11 PM	#3
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 242	Italian Masters. "Gurda" Attached Images

21st May 2025, 11:04 PM	#6
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 830	error Last edited by gp; 21st May 2025 at 11:18 PM.

14th May 2025, 07:36 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear. These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability. The Brotherhood? of course!

20th May 2025, 05:30 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you so much Yuri! I could not open this due to restrictions, but Im familiar with the work of Lenz from ZWHK. Interesting note on the term 'gurda' which I am familiar with as the term for the 'Genoan' sickle marks copied on Chechen sword blades in the Caucusus. These and other markings were copied on these blades, likely from Genoan trade ports in the Black Sea. The subject of markings as applied by distinct makers in Italy is daunting as there was a great deal of spurious use by others, and the variations of some of the more ubiquitous Italian marks seem to be used in unusual configurations and pairings. The marca mosca, and 'pi' marks seen in the plate you show do not appear to belong to a particular maker. Genoa was primarily a port of export, and the so called 'sickle' marks, though used by various blade making locations in North Italy, again sometimes in unusual variation, became deemed 'Genoan' as that was where they came from. These and many of the other markings noted became copied on blades in Germany and Styria, as well as other locations, and often it is hard to determine a blades origin by focus on markings. Often makers worked in the shops of other makers, such as the noted Ferrara brothers, who though working in the forge of a maker in Belluno, with the name of Andrea Ferrara becoming legendary. The consternation regarding this is well known, but as far as known, no blades by him and marked as such are known (obviously there have been some suggested). Another conundrum are the blades of CAINO. Again widely copied, it is unclear if by two makers named Caino (separate locations) or perhaps the city of Caino (near Milan) . Blades have the name Caino and various marks (M over an S, or over a mark).....but most distinctively typically have strange groupings of letters, often sequenced, that seem to be acrostics or some coded letter combinations. These are a few of the mysterious markings, names etc. that turn up on blades that have entered the trade networks which have supplied many cultural spheres, and have circulated for generations if not even centuries. This is what makes these ethnographic weapons so fascinating, and thank you for keeping this thread so interesting.