Saif, Moroccan saif, sife, nimcha, nimsha

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by TVV

Dating is always tricky, especially when it comes to European blades on North African hilts. On top of that, European marks were copied locally, and given the combination of marks on yours Yuri, it looks like most of them were applied in Morocco.

The blade on the hussar saber is of an older form, wider at the base, then narrower and then with a yelman at the tip. Yours on the other hand is much more in line with European 19th century patterns.

Completely in accord, and Teodor IMO few people know 'nimchas' as you do.
As noted, European marks were copied profusely, and often added to the European blades already filtering into North African entrepots. In my view these were added to add imbued talismanic or other 'magic' properties to the blade, not any effort to purport certain European makers made the blades.

Clearly English was not the first language of the inscriber, and the ANDREA FERARA blades were known in circulation among trade blades in the networks. Often other marks were added in the same convention, adding further magical support likely along with other familiar European marks, the sickle often seen for example.

I found this mysterious oval mark with the four appendages in Wallace Coll. (p.274) as found on a German blade c. 1560s-1600 in this case bracketed by these dentated arcs (sickle). It is my impression that this is a lesser known mark likely Italian that ended up being spuriously used much as the sickle, twig etc. were used in Styria and Germany. (attached)

Also added the hussar saber with late 17th c blade (prb. Styrian) from discussion on European forum, and with this curious oval mark.

[Pertinax]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found this mysterious oval mark with the four appendages in Wallace Coll. (p.274) as found on a German blade c. 1560s-1600 in this case bracketed by these dentated arcs (sickle). It is my impression that this is a lesser known mark likely Italian that ended up being spuriously used much as the sickle, twig etc. were used in Styria and Germany. (attached)

Also added the hussar saber with late 17th c blade (prb. Styrian) from discussion on European forum, and with this curious oval mark.

Bravo Jim! You are, as always, on top, hats off!

Now we already know that the oval sign with four appendages is found on European weapons.

Perhaps one day we will find out who it belonged to.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Yuri It is always fun to solve (or try) mysteries. It is doubtful anyone has records of these often variously configured markings as to what meaning they might have had. Makers tended to have distinctive trademark punzones which were placed singularly in one universal location on the blade, typically the forte.
It seems that although many blades had no makers marks.....typically well established makers had shops, and often other workers making blades, which presumably were not marked as those of the master.

This was the case with the Ferara brothers (your ANDREA FERARA mkg) of Belluno in the regions of Milan in Italy. They worked in the shop of another master forger, and VERY few blades are marked to the Ferara brothers.
How the name became such a ubiquitous mark of quality is a matter of notable debate, but has become the stuff of legend.

Looking at references with these twig, marca mosca, sickles etc. they occur in weird configurations and multiples on the Italian blades, which further indicates that though not isolated to one maker....it is possible that certain combinations might be so used. There have also always been suggestions of the guilds having something to do with these varied devices.

[Rick]

Is a backsword blade in Nimcha dress still called a Nimcha?
All of the Nimchas in this thread have curved blades.

Is it welcome in the Brotherhood?

[Jim McDougall]

Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear.
These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability.
The Brotherhood? of course!

[Pertinax]

Hi Jim!

I thought you might find it interesting, you can download it for free:
https://historical-weapons.com/wp-co...ie-Nomer-1.pdf

JOURNAL OF THE SOCIETY OF HISTORICAL WEAPONS
HISTORICAL WEAPONS No. 1 2015
EDUARD von LENZ
A FEW WORDS ABOUT ANCIENT COLD WEAPONS
Page 150-151

IV. Italian Masters. "Gurda".
The Italian masters, in contrast to the Solingen and German masters in general, comparatively rarely branded their blades, and if they did, they usually used small marks of a simple form (Fig. 11), which, as far as is known, belonged to the workshops of the cities of Genoa, Brescia, Milan and Belluno and did not constitute the personal property of certain masters.

P.s. If you have any difficulties with the translation, let me know and I will help.

[Pertinax]

Italian Masters. "Gurda"