Saif, Moroccan saif, sife, nimcha, nimsha

Pertinax · 12th May 2025, 08:13 AM

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;297170]LOL! good one werecow

Though this example is likely from early 20th c. the blade is quite possibly from the many European blades circulating through trade centers in the North African littoral from earlier years. It would be hard to define use distinctly to region or whether Arab or Berber as these were so widely used for centuries overall in these regions.

This is a rugged example which is of the type used by the notorious Barbary Pirates from Morocco through Algeria, Tunis and as far as Libya throigh the 19th c. and even by Berber tribes in the Rif Wars in Morocco in the 1920s.

Hi Jim!

On the European Arsenal forum in the topic "Hussar sabre, real or not?" the serdar showed the sabre.

On the blade there is a stamp "germ" similar to the stamp on my nimcha, which is typical of this location, they are identical.

It can be assumed that this is the marking of an unknown European manufacturer.

I do not undertake to judge the authenticity of the hussar sabre, it is not my topic. But if we believe the curator of the museum that the sabre is from the end of the 17th - beginning of the 18th century, then we can reconsider the age of the nimcha.

What are your thoughts, Jim?

Best regards,
Yuri

TVV · 12th May 2025, 06:07 PM

Dating is always tricky, especially when it comes to European blades on North African hilts. On top of that, European marks were copied locally, and given the combination of marks on yours Yuri, it looks like most of them were applied in Morocco.

The blade on the hussar saber is of an older form, wider at the base, then narrower and then with a yelman at the tip. Yours on the other hand is much more in line with European 19th century patterns.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2025, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Dating is always tricky, especially when it comes to European blades on North African hilts. On top of that, European marks were copied locally, and given the combination of marks on yours Yuri, it looks like most of them were applied in Morocco.

The blade on the hussar saber is of an older form, wider at the base, then narrower and then with a yelman at the tip. Yours on the other hand is much more in line with European 19th century patterns.

Completely in accord, and Teodor IMO few people know 'nimchas' as you do.
As noted, European marks were copied profusely, and often added to the European blades already filtering into North African entrepots. In my view these were added to add imbued talismanic or other 'magic' properties to the blade, not any effort to purport certain European makers made the blades.

Clearly English was not the first language of the inscriber, and the ANDREA FERARA blades were known in circulation among trade blades in the networks. Often other marks were added in the same convention, adding further magical support likely along with other familiar European marks, the sickle often seen for example.

I found this mysterious oval mark with the four appendages in Wallace Coll. (p.274) as found on a German blade c. 1560s-1600 in this case bracketed by these dentated arcs (sickle). It is my impression that this is a lesser known mark likely Italian that ended up being spuriously used much as the sickle, twig etc. were used in Styria and Germany. (attached)

Also added the hussar saber with late 17th c blade (prb. Styrian) from discussion on European forum, and with this curious oval mark.

Pertinax · 12th May 2025, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I found this mysterious oval mark with the four appendages in Wallace Coll. (p.274) as found on a German blade c. 1560s-1600 in this case bracketed by these dentated arcs (sickle). It is my impression that this is a lesser known mark likely Italian that ended up being spuriously used much as the sickle, twig etc. were used in Styria and Germany. (attached)

Also added the hussar saber with late 17th c blade (prb. Styrian) from discussion on European forum, and with this curious oval mark.

Bravo Jim! You are, as always, on top, hats off!

Now we already know that the oval sign with four appendages is found on European weapons.

Perhaps one day we will find out who it belonged to.

Jim McDougall · 12th May 2025, 09:43 PM

Thank you Yuri

It is always fun to solve (or try) mysteries. It is doubtful anyone has records of these often variously configured markings as to what meaning they might have had. Makers tended to have distinctive trademark punzones which were placed singularly in one universal location on the blade, typically the forte.
It seems that although many blades had no makers marks.....typically well established makers had shops, and often other workers making blades, which presumably were not marked as those of the master.

This was the case with the Ferara brothers (your ANDREA FERARA mkg) of Belluno in the regions of Milan in Italy. They worked in the shop of another master forger, and VERY few blades are marked to the Ferara brothers.
How the name became such a ubiquitous mark of quality is a matter of notable debate, but has become the stuff of legend.

Looking at references with these twig, marca mosca, sickles etc. they occur in weird configurations and multiples on the Italian blades, which further indicates that though not isolated to one maker....it is possible that certain combinations might be so used. There have also always been suggestions of the guilds having something to do with these varied devices.

Rick · 14th May 2025, 04:14 AM

Is a backsword blade in Nimcha dress still called a Nimcha?
All of the Nimchas in this thread have curved blades.

Is it welcome in the Brotherhood?

Jim McDougall · 14th May 2025, 07:36 AM

Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear.
These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability.
The Brotherhood? of course!

Pertinax · 12th May 2025, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Dating is always tricky, especially when it comes to European blades on North African hilts. On top of that, European marks were copied locally, and given the combination of marks on yours Yuri, it looks like most of them were applied in Morocco.

The blade on the hussar saber is of an older form, wider at the base, then narrower and then with a yelman at the tip. Yours on the other hand is much more in line with European 19th century patterns.

Many thanks to Teodor!

Yes, I absolutely agree with you, the blades on the nimche and the hussar sabre are completely different in shape and age.

When studying the stamps on the nimche, I assumed that the European blade with the "germ" stamp came to Maghreb, where the other pseudo-stamps were added manually. The "germ" stamp was stamped, and the pseudo-stamps were manually chiselled.

Best regards,
Yuri

14th May 2025, 04:14 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Do Clothes Make the Man? Is a backsword blade in Nimcha dress still called a Nimcha? All of the Nimchas in this thread have curved blades. Is it welcome in the Brotherhood? Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 14th May 2025 at 04:29 AM.

12th May 2025, 08:13 AM	#1
Pertinax Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: City by the Black Sea Posts: 242	[QUOTE=Jim McDougall;297170]LOL! good one werecow Though this example is likely from early 20th c. the blade is quite possibly from the many European blades circulating through trade centers in the North African littoral from earlier years. It would be hard to define use distinctly to region or whether Arab or Berber as these were so widely used for centuries overall in these regions. This is a rugged example which is of the type used by the notorious Barbary Pirates from Morocco through Algeria, Tunis and as far as Libya throigh the 19th c. and even by Berber tribes in the Rif Wars in Morocco in the 1920s. Hi Jim! On the European Arsenal forum in the topic "Hussar sabre, real or not?" the serdar showed the sabre. On the blade there is a stamp "germ" similar to the stamp on my nimcha, which is typical of this location, they are identical. It can be assumed that this is the marking of an unknown European manufacturer. I do not undertake to judge the authenticity of the hussar sabre, it is not my topic. But if we believe the curator of the museum that the sabre is from the end of the 17th - beginning of the 18th century, then we can reconsider the age of the nimcha. What are your thoughts, Jim? Best regards, Yuri

12th May 2025, 06:07 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Dating is always tricky, especially when it comes to European blades on North African hilts. On top of that, European marks were copied locally, and given the combination of marks on yours Yuri, it looks like most of them were applied in Morocco. The blade on the hussar saber is of an older form, wider at the base, then narrower and then with a yelman at the tip. Yours on the other hand is much more in line with European 19th century patterns.

12th May 2025, 09:43 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Yuri It is always fun to solve (or try) mysteries. It is doubtful anyone has records of these often variously configured markings as to what meaning they might have had. Makers tended to have distinctive trademark punzones which were placed singularly in one universal location on the blade, typically the forte. It seems that although many blades had no makers marks.....typically well established makers had shops, and often other workers making blades, which presumably were not marked as those of the master. This was the case with the Ferara brothers (your ANDREA FERARA mkg) of Belluno in the regions of Milan in Italy. They worked in the shop of another master forger, and VERY few blades are marked to the Ferara brothers. How the name became such a ubiquitous mark of quality is a matter of notable debate, but has become the stuff of legend. Looking at references with these twig, marca mosca, sickles etc. they occur in weird configurations and multiples on the Italian blades, which further indicates that though not isolated to one maker....it is possible that certain combinations might be so used. There have also always been suggestions of the guilds having something to do with these varied devices.

14th May 2025, 07:36 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Nimcha is just a collective term for these Maghrebi sa'ifs, not technically correct, as often the case with the terms collectors and writers describing them over a century. The term nimcha supposedly refers to a small sword but the proper etymology is a bit unclear. These are simply Arab swords from Maghrebi regions (Algeria to Morocco) and locally termed sa'if only. As blades were typically European, and of them mostly straight cavalry or hanger blades, it seems most collectors regard them as a form distinguished by the familiar hilt and guard system, at least these are my understandings. The use of curved blades was simply incidental just as were the straight blades, availability. The Brotherhood? of course!