Help with the Moro Kris/Kalis/Sundang

Ian · 25th November 2024, 05:17 PM

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

As far as the pitting at the tip, I agree with Detlef. A mild attempt to remove the active oxidation would be good. However, the pitting is too severe to attempt a restoration of the tip. It's a pity because this looks like a good quality blade otherwise, and it appears to have some significant age. I would encourage you to address any active rust elsewhere on the blade also. The whole blade would benefit from a good clean IMHO, although you would lose some of the patina accumulated over a couple of hundred years. After treating the tip as suggested by Detlef, I would probably give the whole blade a gentle clean with fine grit sandpaper, trying to keep some of the patina while getting rid of any areas of active oxidation elsewhere on the blade. Then I would etch the whole blade with vinegar (this may bring out a pattern, but it will also give the blade a fairly uniformly grey appearance which can "enhance" the patina effect. I would neutralize the acid with a sodium bicarbonate solution, rinse well, and allow it to dry. Then you have the choice of oiling it or coating it with a silicone-based wax used specifically for restoration work. I've found the latter works well.

If you don't like the etch effect then polish the blade back to white, and oil or wax.

Sajen · 25th November 2024, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

Hi Ian,

It wasn't Jeff who provided this kris, it was IP.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 26th November 2024, 12:07 AM

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

Interested Party · 26th November 2024, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

No worries. I am glad your insomnia is more productive than mine. I am sorry that I can't give you dimensions of the last blade. I have been preoccupied with adulting lately and it slipped through my fingers. It was for sale in the US.

I had read the thread you linked earlier but had forgotten where to find the information it contained. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this thread. The concrete examples are really helping me to "see" these objects more clearly. I wanted to create a thread that brough together many of the elements of the Kalis that had been discussed recently into one thread with many examples to give myself and other readers repetition in recognizing features and what slight variations signified. Ian, is the longer gandik you speak of in relation to Malaysian manufacture/influence the same as what Cato called cross over type?

I asked the question on conservation because I had noticed blades of this level of corrosion being gently reshaped before resale, then etched to hide the loss of patination, and I wondered about the ethics of this process.

Ian · 3rd December 2024, 11:52 AM

Hi again IP,

In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels.

I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C.

The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.

JeffS · 18th December 2024, 12:27 AM

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion . Here is another one for consideration, I recently bought this on Ebay as a clean up project. I'm particularly curious what types of pommel one might expect to find on it. Understood that dress can be highly variable and differ regionally from the sword itself. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. These are photos from vendor, not high resolution.

Ian · 18th December 2024, 03:02 AM

Hi Jeff. I think this one is a bit of a "tweener" from the late 19th C. It was definitely meant to be a weapon for combat. The "elephant trunk" area is sort of midway between Sulu and Maguindanao, with a horizontal tusk (Maguindanao feature) and a somewhat oval outline to the area bordered by the trunk and gandhik (Sulu feature). If pushed to decide between the two regarding the elephant trunk area, I would probably pick Maguindanao. At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive.

The midline of the hilt bends down, which is more of a Mindanao trait than a Sulu trait. The cross piece of the scabbard has a rounded bottom shoulder, but a sharply pointed top shoulder. The sharp point leads me to a Maguindanao origin.

Overall, I think the dress is Maguindanao, and the likely pommel was probably a medium-sized kakatua. The supporting peg for the pommel is still there, although damaged.

Ian · 18th December 2024, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffS

. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. ...

Yes, it does have a Malay look.

Interested Party · 18th December 2024, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffS

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion .

Not at all Jeff. Lots of discussion and datapoints are the dream. I was having trouble seeing the differences between examples. I created this tread to help understand regional differences in the kris with the existing sources I could find. I hoped having lots of examples discussed would be a resource for myself and others.

18th December 2024, 12:27 AM	#6
JeffS Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 427	Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion . Here is another one for consideration, I recently bought this on Ebay as a clean up project. I'm particularly curious what types of pommel one might expect to find on it. Understood that dress can be highly variable and differ regionally from the sword itself. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. These are photos from vendor, not high resolution. Attached Images

18th December 2024, 03:02 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Hi Jeff. I think this one is a bit of a "tweener" from the late 19th C. It was definitely meant to be a weapon for combat. The "elephant trunk" area is sort of midway between Sulu and Maguindanao, with a horizontal tusk (Maguindanao feature) and a somewhat oval outline to the area bordered by the trunk and gandhik (Sulu feature). If pushed to decide between the two regarding the elephant trunk area, I would probably pick Maguindanao. At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive. The midline of the hilt bends down, which is more of a Mindanao trait than a Sulu trait. The cross piece of the scabbard has a rounded bottom shoulder, but a sharply pointed top shoulder. The sharp point leads me to a Maguindanao origin. Overall, I think the dress is Maguindanao, and the likely pommel was probably a medium-sized kakatua. The supporting peg for the pommel is still there, although damaged. Last edited by Ian; 18th December 2024 at 04:33 AM. Reason: spelling

25th November 2024, 05:17 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia? As far as the pitting at the tip, I agree with Detlef. A mild attempt to remove the active oxidation would be good. However, the pitting is too severe to attempt a restoration of the tip. It's a pity because this looks like a good quality blade otherwise, and it appears to have some significant age. I would encourage you to address any active rust elsewhere on the blade also. The whole blade would benefit from a good clean IMHO, although you would lose some of the patina accumulated over a couple of hundred years. After treating the tip as suggested by Detlef, I would probably give the whole blade a gentle clean with fine grit sandpaper, trying to keep some of the patina while getting rid of any areas of active oxidation elsewhere on the blade. Then I would etch the whole blade with vinegar (this may bring out a pattern, but it will also give the blade a fairly uniformly grey appearance which can "enhance" the patina effect. I would neutralize the acid with a sodium bicarbonate solution, rinse well, and allow it to dry. Then you have the choice of oiling it or coating it with a silicone-based wax used specifically for restoration work. I've found the latter works well. If you don't like the etch effect then polish the blade back to white, and oil or wax. Last edited by Ian; 25th November 2024 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Added comments on restoration

26th November 2024, 12:07 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Hi Detlef, Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia. My apologies IP. Ian.

3rd December 2024, 11:52 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,399	Hi again IP, In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels. I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C. The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.