Side sword with Victorian chiseled hilt?

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

the naval sabre has indeed a later grip and pommel cap, the decoration on the blade reminds me on Italian blade decoration of the 16th c however on your sabre it looks similar yet different, not sure what to think if it.
The repeating shapes on the rapier is a good sign and i have seen it before, its more a baroque type design.
Here are some pictures of a cup hilt with a colichemarde blade, they are rare and different from the small swords colichemarde blades which are between 80 and 90 cm long while these rapier blades are between 100 and 115 cm long.
This particular one was hexagonal cross section hollow ground on the first wide part and after the fuller it changed to diamond cross section hollow ground.
kind regards
Ulfberth

That is a beautiful sword, is it yours? I'd love to match the maker's mark to a time period. Do we know if the colichemarde started on small sword and were applied to larger format rapiers or was it the other way around? And I never considered the size difference in the blades. Looking back at the photos of the cup hilt coming to me, assuming the planks in the floor are two inches wide, the blade would be about 38in to 40in long so roughly 96cm to 100cm. I really appreciate the fact that this is not simply a small sword blade on a rapier but was scaled up for the application.


And I found one example of the kind of decoration I had in mind when I saw the naval saber. This came from a Christie's auction.

[ulfberth]

i had it in my collection untill 2021, the colichemarde type blades are in general 18th century and found on small swords, however earlier variations were used in rapiers in the last quarter of the 17th century.
The blade in your rapier is ca 1600 - 1650 the running wolf on the blade is German Solingen Passau but the stamps seem North Italian, i have not found an exact match yet, there was alot of export of these blades to other countries.

[awdaniec666]

A brief reminder that these sabres were not only used on the sea.

[10thRoyal]

Originally Posted by awdaniec666

A brief reminder that these sabres were not only used on the sea.

i think for just about any other sword of this type you be 100% correct. But this one may be a little different. Kind of. Sort of. Its complicated. After some additional research, I think this blade may need it's own thread.

Ulfberth's comment on Italian naval sabers led me down a rabbit hole of naval pattern schiavona's, Fanti del Mar was one word that popped up on a thread from this website. From there I found a number of examples of schiavona's with guards identical to the one on mine, except with completely different pommels and completely different blades.





Finally I found one that gave me a bit of a eureka moment, below is an image of a closeup of a guard of one of a marine Schiavona with a Venitian arsenal mark on the guard, the second is my sword:



And there it is! A (probable) Venetian maker's mark on my own sword. So what I have is a guard from one of these Venitian marine swords, with a storta, falchion, dussack, etc, etc blade. So you are both right I believe.

[ulfberth]

Good Find 10th , that is the Venetian arsenal mark , its found on some schiavonas to, your blade could be variation used in this type and the curved blade is common on naval swords. I always liked these, they show character trough simplicity and even tough they are simple they have a certain elegance about them.
kind regards
Ulfberth

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Hello Folks. I have always - instinctively - considered this style of colichemarde to be much earlier that the traditional smallsword variant but, as always, my lack of experience warns me not to make pronouncements until I am certain.
One opinion I proffer is that this style of sword perfectly exemplifies the theory that the pronounced forte was to provide the best of two worlds at a time when regular heavy rapiers and heavier battlefield weapons were a possible opponent.
I understand alternative opinions have been voiced regarding the defence against heavier blade theory... those opinions seem curiously odd.
The appearance of this style of colichemarde is distinctly similar to the thin rapier blades with no possible cutting ability, that were obviously intended - and used - as civilian carry and duelling, but rarely, if ever, battlefield.
It seems obvious to me that the expanded forte was intended to remedy this shortcoming; yet why anyone would wish such a blade on a battlefield, or indeed as a civilian/court carry defies logic. It would certainly not present an attractive look when in its scabbard; the later styles were often considered a bit gross - despite Washington's presidential opinion.
My attention has long been distracted by the business of the colichemarde because I have certain theories regarding its history that need to be corroborated. If we ignore the earlier variants and concentrate of the typical hollow-ground smallsword style, can anyone provide me with definitive indication of its first appearance; furthermore, can anyone provide proof of their birthplace?

This is the best I can do as far as proof goes, its the only pictures ive got left sadly, but the blade was signed " SEBASTIANO HERNANDES" and on the other side " EN TOLEDO" there were two maker marks on each side of the ricasso of of wich i can show you only one clearly.
kind regards
Ulfberth