Schiavona markings

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

I just came across this coat of arms of Dalmatia.
Is it long-since known to everyone that it is the Schiavona pommel?
I'm still catching up.

You may be right. Although I thought the characteristic cat’s head pommel of Schiavonas was meant to represent the winged lion of Venice, which is the symbol of its patron saint St. Mark.

Parts of Istria and Dalmatia with islands were for some time lost by the Croatian-Hungarian dual Kingdom to the Republic of Venice during the Ottoman wars (see map). The Schiavona was named after the Slavonic people in this region, many of who served in the Venetian armed forces. Plenty fascinating history here.

[urbanspaceman]

Still catching up is a severe understatement: my remaining years would not suffice.
Yes, it is seriously fascinating history here, and I know nothing of it at all.
Of course, the world is a big place, full of division and endless bloody squabbles.
The literal translation of the word 'war' in Tibetan is "I want more cows"; succinct to say the least.
Being from the borders of Scotland and England (Newcastle) we never knew who was in charge from day to day. We didn't take sides, just welcomed whoever was in the ascendancy at the time.
Meet the new boss... same as the old boss.
Of course, without the wars there would be no swords and etc; we would have to collect something else.
It's astonishing just what is collectable these days: airline sick-bags anyone?
Sorry, strayed of the subject a touch.

[schiavonafleck]

Hello,
the name Grgur is engraved on the basket of your schiavona. It is written in Croatian Cyrillic or the so-called Bosančica. Grgur was a Croatian master blacksmith who made these complex baskets. The schiavona you bought does not have the original pommel. This is a subsequently cast and patinated pommel. That schiavona had another pommel even before Albanarms resold it. :/

[schiavonafleck]

.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello. Thank-you for your input.
It does raise more questions than it answers of course and I feel sure you can help here as you are obviously familiar with the provenance of this sword.
Where did the pictures (thank-you) featuring the old pommel come from?
I realised the new pommel was a casting as it still retains some of the flash. Tony indicated this in his description.
It is obviously an Italian (Belluno?) heirloom blade re-hilted in the second half of the 1700s.
Do you know where Grgur worked?
Even accepting that the blade is much older than the hilt doesn't explain the markings.
Are you familiar with the blade markings?
Jim McDougall gave me some fascinating info:
The arcs seem to have been around since the late 1400s, at least on one example attributed to Pippo and C. so they were probably added here to pretend a venerable past as I assume there were no such blade types around back then.
The TWIGS, as they are sometimes called, also date back to a similar time and used to come in groups of three similar to here.
The sword Jim referenced came from the 'hall of the Council of Ten'.
It seems likely that all of this was done to exhibit reverence to a sword for a member of the Doge's bodyguard.
The blade has seen considerable activity as the edges show long curves of grinding in places to remove nicks: very nicely done.
Incidentally, the basket is rather small and is a snug fit even for my rather petite hands.

[Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by schiavonafleck

Hello,
the name Grgur is engraved on the basket of your schiavona. It is written in Croatian Cyrillic or the so-called Bosančica. Grgur was a Croatian master blacksmith who made these complex baskets. The schiavona you bought does not have the original pommel. This is a subsequently cast and patinated pommel. That schiavona had another pommel even before Albanarms resold it. :/

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

How interesting.
The cyrillic alphabet is of course familiar to most people aligned with the Russian language, however it is well known with the Slavic languages.
The variations, as with most languages, are dialectic and it seems the differences, while limited, are to use of different letters.

[Radboud]

Originally Posted by Lightfoot

What is croatian cyrrilic? That does not exist. Only cyrrillic alphabet is used by serbs. In those parts of Croatia the majority of the inhabitants in that period of time was serbian ethnic people.

Are you one of those Serbian Nationalists so knotted up with hate that you can't resist the urge to sign up to a sword forum to make your first post a denial of someone else's history or identity?

How about you contribute something other than hate?

I don't know much about Croatian cyrrillic but a quick search landed me on this interesting website that might help others in examining the topic further:

Croatian Cyrillic Script

[urbanspaceman]

Jim, Radboud, thank-you for clearing this up.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

Jim, Radboud, thank-you for clearing this up.

You bet! Interesting to look back to discussions in 2012 (Oct.) when 'Aurelius' (FROM Croatia) joined us and noted that Croatian cyrillic was termed 'bosancica' and comparable lettering shown on a sword was to GRGUR MAJSTER (=Gregory artisan) . This type 'Croatian cyrillic' was used up to end of the 18th c. and shown in Oakeshott ("European Weapons and Armor" p.189, fig.87).

[Lightfoot]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Are you one of those Serbian Nationalists so knotted up with hate that you can't resist the urge to sign up to a sword forum to make your first post a denial of someone else's history or identity?

How about you contribute something other than hate?

I don't know much about Croatian cyrrillic but a quick search landed me on this interesting website that might help others in examining the topic further:

Croatian Cyrillic Script

Seems like you are the prosecutor and the executor in this matter without any proof. If I were a politician and not a collector I would not stop. But accusing me of hatred toward others and accusing me to be a nationalist without knowing me is not ok.