Tatar saber for discussion

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2023, 01:50 PM

No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording.

Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned):
"Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor)
Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997
Item #76
"...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum".

That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case).
However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade.

According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular.

As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented.

In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application.

I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted).

Jim McDougall · 6th January 2023, 02:25 AM

Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion.

Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin.
In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape.
The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c.

Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment.
He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance.

Edster · 7th January 2023, 01:24 AM

Jim,

Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553

On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972
https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007

Also a 1882 US cattle brand book.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up

Best,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2023, 03:10 AM

Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs.
In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided!
Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands.

Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.

5th January 2023, 01:50 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,461	No problem, I could have been more clear in my wording. Staying with the discussion of tamgas, as you have brought forward, and the Tatars as also the focus in discussion of these, I would add this resource (previously mentioned): "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armor) Jacek Gotowski, Warsaw, 1997 Item #76 "...only one example of a blade with Tatar ownership is known, this saber with a Tatar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard, and in the Polish Army Museum". That quote is interesting with regard to my shashka as it suggests the convention was to place the tamga on the scabbard (chape in my case). However, in revisiting this thread in its 2005 segment, Rsword shows a Tatar sword with apparently the same tamga described in Gutowski but inlaid in the blade. According to Kirill Rivkin in the discussion, the tamga forms are well known in Tatar contexts including Circassian, and the ancient traditions of the Scythians and Sarmatians. This of course is generally meant and without specifying use on weapons in particular. As noted, the tamga used by Ottoman military (regarded as to the St. Irene arsenal) is from the Kayi band of the Oguz tribe, and one of the number of examples. Naturally these would vary as required for distinction to the tribe represented. In rereading through the 2005 discussion it seems there were Turkish tribes present in North Caucusus, and certainly Tatar presence is suggested as well. It would seem there would be abundant possibility to explain the presence of this tamga on the scabbard of a shashka from Vladikavkaz and Daghestani style, despite the rarity of instances of such application. I brought forward a plate of tamgas from previous discussion for the benefit of current readers as well as picture of the Tatar sword with tamga on blade as referenced in 2005 (comparable to Gutowski example noted). Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 5th January 2023 at 08:54 PM.

6th January 2023, 02:25 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,461	Addendum on Tatar sword tamgas and shashka w/tamga Found the illustration of the Tatar ordynka with tamga -on SCABBARD mentioned in previous post and on blade of similar sword and same tamga from 2005 discussion. Also, found detail from correspondence from Lebedynsky (1998) regarding the tamga on my shashka chape. He suggests these kinds of tamga are generally Northwest Caucusus, possibly Abaza (Circassian) but notes the shashka seems of Daghestan origin. In the original assessment of the sword, 1997 from another source, it is noted the reverse of the locket on the scabbard is inscribed in Arabic 'Sahabi....Afand'. apparently owners name. The Kubachi workmanship is noted and star and crescent in high relief hilt motif, and the unique tamga on chape. The blade is believed Styrian/Hungarian and earlier 19th c. Years later in discussion with Kirill Rivkin (2018), he suggested this was likely made in northwest between Vladikavkaz and Nalchik, perhaps either Lak or Dargi Kubachiki craftsman......clearly concurring with the earlier assessment. He noted tamga were nearly unknown on shashkas, but did seem to occur occasionally on kindjhals, and typically suggested Circassian provenance. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th January 2023 at 02:37 AM.

7th January 2023, 01:24 AM	#3
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 418	Jim, Your symbols/tribal sword marks are remindful of Sudanese tribal camel brands collected in Darfur to document its history 1200-1700. Most derive from Berber alphabet letters and also indicate other symbolic ownership elements. Sorry they won't copy, but see p.223 and discussion in this 1951 Sudan Notes & Records article https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/41719553 On Camel Brands, I.G. Hill, SNRV.53, 1972 https://sci-hub.se/10.2307/42678007 Also a 1882 US cattle brand book. https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/...age/3/mode/1up Best, Ed

7th January 2023, 03:10 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,461	Ed, this is an amazing seque which is well observed, and speaks directly to my long fascination with markings, symbols and as you note, including brands. Many years back as I was researching markings found on North African swords, in particular the kaskaras, I had the idea that perhaps some of these might have some connection to ancient Egyptian heiroglyphs. In looking into that, I read MacMichael (1913) , "The Brands Used by Chief Camel Owning Tribes of Kordofan", as noted in these great links you provided! Actually, while not a major influence, it seems there were cases where there was indeed some connection to hieroglyphics and some brands. Tribal symbolism has no boundaries, and is one of the most fascinating aspects of these studies, thank you so much! These articles are outstanding.