Help with ID on a Solingen 'Tree' mark

Radboud · 12th October 2022, 10:27 PM

The sword arrived yesterday, so can put up some more photos. My first impression is that it's a lot lighter than I expected, at 860 grams. The blade is 830mm long, but has lost a bit off the point.

It's also quite thin: (Profile / Distal taper)

Ricasso: 35.3mm / 5.6mm
200mm: 30.5mm / 4.1mm
400mm: 26.1mm / 3.4mm
600mm: 23.8mm / 2.5mm
800mm: 15.3mm / 1.4mm

Although this profile is similar to the backsword blade on my 1796 HC dress sword:

Ricasso: 32.0mm / 6.1mm
200mm: 28.9mm / 4.5mm
400mm: 27.7mm / 3.2mm
600mm: 25.2mm / 2.7mm
800mm: 16.5mm / 1.3mm

I'm guessing that the grip wire was redone at some point, possibly in the 1800s? Although the Turkshead knot looks good so it might be older but that seems unlikely.

All in all an interesting piece, even with the peculiar 'panel' on the blade. Will need to keep an eye open for similar blade profiles to compare.

werecow · 12th October 2022, 11:45 PM

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

Radboud · 13th October 2022, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

It's another head, just the face is a bit worn. These faces are a prominent feature of these hilts and where the name 'Mortuary' sword comes from. Late Victorian collectors theorised that the face was the martyred King Charles II.

But as swords with these decorations were carried by both sides of the English Civil War, and there exist examples that can be dated to before the death of Charles II, this is an unlikely explanation. Possibly another one of those mysteries that can only be resolved with a time machine

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2022, 11:32 AM

It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme.
As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war.
I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind.
BTW, it is a magnificent sword.

kronckew · 13th October 2022, 09:18 PM

Another found online:

Radboud · 13th October 2022, 09:32 PM

Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew.

Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

toaster5sqn · 13th October 2022, 11:13 PM

I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth.
Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher".

Robert

12th October 2022, 10:27 PM	#1
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 298	The sword arrived yesterday, so can put up some more photos. My first impression is that it's a lot lighter than I expected, at 860 grams. The blade is 830mm long, but has lost a bit off the point. It's also quite thin: (Profile / Distal taper) Ricasso: 35.3mm / 5.6mm 200mm: 30.5mm / 4.1mm 400mm: 26.1mm / 3.4mm 600mm: 23.8mm / 2.5mm 800mm: 15.3mm / 1.4mm Although this profile is similar to the backsword blade on my 1796 HC dress sword: Ricasso: 32.0mm / 6.1mm 200mm: 28.9mm / 4.5mm 400mm: 27.7mm / 3.2mm 600mm: 25.2mm / 2.7mm 800mm: 16.5mm / 1.3mm I'm guessing that the grip wire was redone at some point, possibly in the 1800s? Although the Turkshead knot looks good so it might be older but that seems unlikely. All in all an interesting piece, even with the peculiar 'panel' on the blade. Will need to keep an eye open for similar blade profiles to compare. Attached Images

13th October 2022, 11:32 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 722	Face in the flowers It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme. As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war. I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind. BTW, it is a magnificent sword. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 13th October 2022 at 11:35 AM. Reason: correction

13th October 2022, 09:18 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	Another found online: Attached Images

12th October 2022, 11:45 PM	#2
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 617	* Drool * The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

13th October 2022, 09:32 PM	#6
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 298	Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew. Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

13th October 2022, 11:13 PM	#7
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 84	I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth. Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher". Robert