Help with ID on a Solingen 'Tree' mark

werecow · 12th October 2022, 10:45 PM

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

Radboud · 12th October 2022, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

* Drool *

The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

It's another head, just the face is a bit worn. These faces are a prominent feature of these hilts and where the name 'Mortuary' sword comes from. Late Victorian collectors theorised that the face was the martyred King Charles II.

But as swords with these decorations were carried by both sides of the English Civil War, and there exist examples that can be dated to before the death of Charles II, this is an unlikely explanation. Possibly another one of those mysteries that can only be resolved with a time machine

urbanspaceman · 13th October 2022, 10:32 AM

It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme.
As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war.
I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind.
BTW, it is a magnificent sword.

kronckew · 13th October 2022, 08:18 PM

Another found online:

Radboud · 13th October 2022, 08:32 PM

Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew.

Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

toaster5sqn · 13th October 2022, 10:13 PM

I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth.
Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher".

Robert

Triarii · 16th October 2022, 01:58 PM

Any chance of a clearer photo of the blade panel? Ignore, just seen the photos. A search engine took me straight into the later photos.

I'm cleaning a sort of AVB Norman Type 91 hilt (with raised detail in a similar style to yours) with the blade stamped HEINRICH KOLL and the Passau wolf of Solingen and there is an armourers mark partially hidden under the shell guard which I thought may be the base of a stylised tree. Photos when I've finished the clean up.

13th October 2022, 10:32 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Face in the flowers It's a Green Man... or a variation on the theme. As was said, Charles the first was beheaded as a result of the civil war. I have Shotley Bridge swords, and have seen others, with that same face... often where the leaves, that are pertinent to the imagery, have worn away with just the face left behind. BTW, it is a magnificent sword. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 13th October 2022 at 10:35 AM. Reason: correction

13th October 2022, 08:18 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,249	Another found online: Attached Images

12th October 2022, 10:45 PM	#1
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 596	* Drool * The engraving on the rear of the guard is a green man I assume, but what is engraved on the sides? It almost looks like a flower wearing a wig.

13th October 2022, 08:32 PM	#5
Radboud Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 289	Thank you all for the feedback and the additional examples Jim and Kronckew. Jim, I'd be interested to hear how the dimensions of the blade on your example compare to mine.

13th October 2022, 10:13 PM	#6
toaster5sqn Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Location: New Zealand Posts: 79	I'm not sure that the face qualifies as a green man, while it has a foliage pattern around it it is not truly part of it. The true green man figure often has leaves for hair and branches emerging from the mouth. Also worth noting that the green man symbols are a complete enigma we have no record of what they meant to the people who carved them and the "ancient woodland deity" theory was made up out of thin air by a Victorian "researcher". Robert

16th October 2022, 01:58 PM	#7
Triarii Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Location: Bristol Posts: 143	Any chance of a clearer photo of the blade panel? Ignore, just seen the photos. A search engine took me straight into the later photos. I'm cleaning a sort of AVB Norman Type 91 hilt (with raised detail in a similar style to yours) with the blade stamped HEINRICH KOLL and the Passau wolf of Solingen and there is an armourers mark partially hidden under the shell guard which I thought may be the base of a stylised tree. Photos when I've finished the clean up.