Please help me identify the age and markings on this Rapier.

[ASPaulding]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando, you are always too modest, I know you too well over these many years, and know how many of these you have handled. I know you typically step aside to allow more free flowing observation from members to facilitate discussion.
Conversely I usually blast in, but pretty much expect much of my observation or theory to be corrected or elucidated, as actually I hope for. It is how I (we) learn .
For example, the more I look at this, I think my training blade idea is not right, but the numbering at the forte is certainly known on Solingen trade blades of 19th c. This is not something normally seen on any sort of rapier or other blade of the period intended for this rapier. The marking(s) or simply too defaced for any accurate assessment.
Such defacement has many causes/reasons mostly to obliterate the identification of a mark or sometimes some symbolic removal, the numbers are irrelevant in that regard as they are simply administrative or inventory.

The 'knob' or widening at end of knuckle guard is correct for rapiers, and the shape concurs with the quillon terminals, another plus.

While the pommel seems latter 18th c. I cannot say it might not be earlier.

On the 'rim'.....the exuberance was all mine , and the 'rompepuntas' (folded over lip on cup of this form) was open, not solid on period examples of 17th c.
Things began changing of course as this cuphilt style began becoming an arming type sword (which this is) in the 18th century, perhaps even earlier in less metropolitan settings, and cup element became solid cast. In many colonial types it is absent altogether.

It seems this blade has been as observed, shortened as this dramatic reduction to sharp point is unusual on these lenticular type blades IMO.

With the grip, obviously restoration work, but perhaps cast? with usual turks heads absent. Rust removal simply WD40, as always just stabilizing and cleaning minimally as required.

I have cleaned it up a little. Hopefully I didn't devalue it to much. I planning on keeping it so it really doesn't matter. Just thought I would share the grip in question. Thank you'll again for everything.

[Jim McDougall]

well done! that is absolutely perfect! and I'm so glad you're keeping it.
The thing I have always loved about 'colonial' weapons is that they have a unique, rustic charm that makes one wonder of the adventurous tales they may hold. While it cannot be said for certain this is such a weapon.....by the same token, it cannot be discounted either.

Many of these weapons, or their components, had extremely long working lives and often ended up in situ in various settings for generations until finally being sold off, and ultimately sometimes finding a good home , like this!

This is my 'colonial', and has had some work as well. These were prevalent through New Spain in Caribbean, Gulf areas through 18th c. into early years of 19th.

[Interested Party]

Jim, is that an ivory handle? Thanks for showing a different type of rim to the cup. This helps clarify post #17.

I would love to add a colonial arming sword to my collection some day.

[ASPaulding]

Thank you for sharing. That is one beautiful sword. One day I hope to have a nice collection of diffrent arms around 18th century or older. To me that was the time swords and daggers alike really mattered. It just wasn't for show or for the very last resort. They were meant to be a piece of art as well as a key part to survival.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much guys!
I believe this is indeed ivory, and clearly has been on this for a very long time. This is of course atypical for hilts on these kinds of swords, but in colonial situations there were were few limitations to the personalizing of a weapon. Actually, the use of ivory and the remnants of black japanning strongly suggests possible maritime provenance on a vessel in the Spanish Main, an intriguing thought!

Swords were indeed a key weapon and despite the advent of firearms, these quickly became primary arms with issues with misfires, lack of ammunition, inability to reload in heat of battle and in melee etc.
The fact that there is a subtle kind of art that resides in often the simplest of edged weapon in the design and character of many of the elements is something not often seen by most people.
Not the fancy ceremonial weapons often in high end catalogs, but the 'real deal' that were often 'there' in historic moments often portrayed in famed art work.

[fernando]

I am still intrigued (above all) by those series of digits (inventory, serial, code numbers ?) and now with that 'mark' in both blade faces. Hardly maker's marks, as those usually (always) punch them in one of the sides.


.

[Jim McDougall]

It truly is a puzzle, and the only comparison I can think of is with some blades that were found on South American swords using 'blanks' from Solingen that had numeric sequences on the blade, at the forte in this manner. These were however with three numbers if I recall, but there were two swords with the same type blade and same number. This led me to believe these were either a contract lot or blade type (?) used administratively by the producer of the blades, and these seem to have been 19th c. but hard to say period.
I wish I could find the examples, I'll keep looking.

Whatever the case, Solingen was of course primary provider for blades and swords through 19th century into South American regions, where Portuguese colonial occupation had prevailed, thus many of these swords likely remained as well.