Back to Laz Bicagi

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by gp

.. looking at the geography map of the region:

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

Dear colleagues, you can all see how complex and time-varying the political and ethnic map is in the Eastern and Southern Black Sea region! This is a real paradise for ethnographers and linguists, it is a lot of difficulties for historians, and it is a real curse for experts in ethnic conflicts. There is probably only one other equally complex region in the world - Southwest China with adjacent areas of Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Tibet. In a related topic, Ariel asked why Russian scientists have done so little to link museum objects and their ethnic origin? In Russia, historians of weapons prefer to use descriptive names in the literature with reference to geographical origin. The ethnic name, if specified, is used as an optional one. In particular, the knife, persistently referred to as "surmene", is called the "circumpontian knife" (циркумпонтийский нож). This term is derived from the Greek word "Pont" (short for "Pont Euxin" - the Black Sea) and the Latin "circum" - around. Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife - a similar type was found along the entire coast of the Black Sea, possibly with the exception of its Western part (the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania). The peoples who lived there spoke languages ​​belonging to at least four different language groups. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the name "surmene" (and equally "baba kamas" ) was borrowed by all of them.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

you're welcome Ren Ren !

I stumbled upon this youtube film which also shows some interesting maps ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZqomyEdoFU

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Thanks for the clarification re. ‘Surmene” knives called by Russian historians ‘Circumpontian” to stress that those knives did not belong specifically to the town of Surmene, but were endemic to the entire Adjaro-Gurian areal. Perhaps, there was some justification to using geographical rather than ethnic attribution. It might be difficult to strict separation of ethnicities: for example, Meghrelian and Laz languages are just mutual dialects.

According to Dvalishvili, Laz were premier cutlers of the area, but in 1878 they largely migrated to the Ottoman Empire as “ mukhajirs”. Their names were modified from the original Georgian to Turkish.

A large part of Guria belonged to the Russian Empire well before that moment. Perhaps this is the reason why the so-called “Gurian” kindjals stayed separate from the rest of SW Georgia to the point that their kindjal with minor modifications was adopted by the Russian Black Sea Cossack Host.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

Dear colleagues, you can all see how complex and time-varying the political and ethnic map is in the Eastern and Southern Black Sea region! This is a real paradise for ethnographers and linguists, it is a lot of difficulties for historians, and it is a real curse for experts in ethnic conflicts. There is probably only one other equally complex region in the world - Southwest China with adjacent areas of Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Tibet. In a related topic, Ariel asked why Russian scientists have done so little to link museum objects and their ethnic origin? In Russia, historians of weapons prefer to use descriptive names in the literature with reference to geographical origin. The ethnic name, if specified, is used as an optional one. In particular, the knife, persistently referred to as "surmene", is called the "circumpontian knife" (циркумпонтийский нож). This term is derived from the Greek word "Pont" (short for "Pont Euxin" - the Black Sea) and the Latin "circum" - around. Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife - a similar type was found along the entire coast of the Black Sea, possibly with the exception of its Western part (the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania). The peoples who lived there spoke languages ​​belonging to at least four different language groups. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the name "surmene" (and equally "baba kamas" ) was borrowed by all of them.

Thank you very very much for this contribution: so if I make a kind of interpretation of “ Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife “ it could well be that the design of a Surmene dagger could have washed up at the shore of Bulgaria & Romania during the Ottoman period ? And hence “entered” the former Yugoslavia; through the connection Bulgaria-Macedonia and travelled more up north to Serbia and Bosnia…? Specially taking into consideration that hardly anything is written about the small arms like kamas, bichaqs and such…
Reference to my reply in the bichaq thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=86

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=96

Or do you think I am wrong and the assumption is incorrect? And just a silly speculation…? Or still a possibility as I originally was and am convinced there was an interaction…?
Being no scolar myself…just a simple collector with a few books and small library on Ex Yu and BiH Ottoman cold weapons…

[Ren Ren]

I think that it is quite possible that there was an Ottoman influence at a time when the Black Sea was an inland sea of ​​the Ottoman Empire. But I also propose to pay attention to the Greek influence, which lasted for two thousand years more than the Ottoman. Greek communities existed in all the notable ports of both the Black Sea and the Adriatic coast. I was told that the Greek community has always been a prominent part of the ethnic picture of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
I would also like to draw your attention to the islands of the Aegean and Mediterranean seas. There were very interesting designs of knives, of which only the knives of the island of Crete are well known. A friend of mine visited Cyprus about 10 years ago and through his perseverance met one of the last blacksmiths who made traditional knives that were somewhat popular with local butchers. These were very curious knives in a characteristic style, where, if desired, one could find both features of the Ottoman influence and structural elements that had existed in the Hellenistic world for about 2000 years.

[ariel]

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance, whereas the rest were totally or at the least significantly influenced by Islam and 100% controlled by the Ottomans. All historiographic and iconographic sources confirm that crucial distinction.
What artistic signs of Greek military tradition are we talking about? Greece was a Roman province for ~6-7 centuries and under Byzantine rule for yet another millennium. After that it just happened to fall into the Ottoman division of the Balkans. Overall, between 2nd century BC and 19 th century CE Greece was just a province of mighty foreign empires. It still was viewed with high respect and largely defined intellectual and partly artistic/cultural spheres, but militarily it was totally subsumed by all of them. Look at the pictures of Greeks during their War of Independence: they wear traditional Greek garb, but carry Ottoman weapons.


Greece was a cradle of human civilization in virtually all spheres: science, medicine, art, architecture, literature, drama, history etc., but militarily its influence withered away since Alexander the Great. It was, perhaps, far too small a country to sustain any military might and dictate world-wide weapon patterns vs. humongous Empires of the New Era.

[Battara]

I think Ariel has a good point here of Ottoman influence being in the entire region.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance,

I was not aware that Slovenia produced any weapons; can you give me some more info, details and if possible examples and pictures ? thnx ☼

[gp]

stumbled upon this quite interesting film on a Laz bichaq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DI6HH9iVxI

[serdar]

Originally Posted by gp

I was not aware that Slovenia produced any weapons; can you give me some more info, details and if possible examples and pictures ? thnx ☼

Slovenia didnt produce any weapons.
He forgot Montenegro, they used taken ottoman weapons from defeated ottomans, and were never under ottomans from 16-19 century.
They made weapons in Boka Kotorska, but mainly used weapons from defeated Ottomans and bought weapons from Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and Croatia.

[Ian]

Gentlemen,

We have wandered from the Laz Bicaq and into Slavic history. This is an old thread and I think it is time to let it fall back into the Archives. Thank you for your contributions.

Ian

[serdar]

Originally Posted by ariel

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance, whereas the rest were totally or at the least significantly influenced by Islam and 100% controlled by the Ottomans. All historiographic and iconographic sources confirm that crucial distinction.
What artistic signs of Greek military tradition are we talking about? Greece was a Roman province for ~6-7 centuries and under Byzantine rule for yet another millennium. After that it just happened to fall into the Ottoman division of the Balkans. Overall, between 2nd century BC and 19 th century CE Greece was just a province of mighty foreign empires. It still was viewed with high respect and largely defined intellectual and partly artistic/cultural spheres, but militarily it was totally subsumed by all of them. Look at the pictures of Greeks during their War of Independence: they wear traditional Greek garb, but carry Ottoman weapons.


Greece was a cradle of human civilization in virtually all spheres: science, medicine, art, architecture, literature, drama, history etc., but militarily its influence withered away since Alexander the Great. It was, perhaps, far too small a country to sustain any military might and dictate world-wide weapon patterns vs. humongous Empires of the New Era.

You forgot old montenegro, which was never ocupied by turks from 16-19 century they defeated dvery ottoman atack, and they used all ottoman weapons they took from defeated turks.