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[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

And, BTW, what we traditionally call " Surmene knives" ( after the Turkish town of Surmene) were also widespread in the Georgian part of the Adjaro-Gurian area and locally known as " Baba Kamas".

Interesting here is the fact that taking into consideration:


1. the word "kama" originates from Armenia
2. looking at the geography map of the region:

- Armenia
- Georgia and hence the Adjaro-Guria part (migration of the Laz people called Mingrelian)
- Turkey and its Laz region

looking at the geopolitical changes through the centuries ( even from the Persian an Roman times) and explained in this article:
https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/13727/gg

it seems no claim to a certain territory can be made and determination of items is quite "challenging"due to the interaction during the centuries.

Are Laz Gurians or are Gurians Laz people or are there many more we can call Laz people(s)...?

Last but not least Surmene knives come now..or at least the last century....from the Trabzon region...and....according to these maps....that is or was part of Lazistan;
so no surprise about the "Grussian " / Georgian connection

[Ren Ren]

Originally Posted by gp

.. looking at the geography map of the region:

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

Dear colleagues, you can all see how complex and time-varying the political and ethnic map is in the Eastern and Southern Black Sea region! This is a real paradise for ethnographers and linguists, it is a lot of difficulties for historians, and it is a real curse for experts in ethnic conflicts. There is probably only one other equally complex region in the world - Southwest China with adjacent areas of Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Tibet. In a related topic, Ariel asked why Russian scientists have done so little to link museum objects and their ethnic origin? In Russia, historians of weapons prefer to use descriptive names in the literature with reference to geographical origin. The ethnic name, if specified, is used as an optional one. In particular, the knife, persistently referred to as "surmene", is called the "circumpontian knife" (циркумпонтийский нож). This term is derived from the Greek word "Pont" (short for "Pont Euxin" - the Black Sea) and the Latin "circum" - around. Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife - a similar type was found along the entire coast of the Black Sea, possibly with the exception of its Western part (the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania). The peoples who lived there spoke languages ​​belonging to at least four different language groups. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the name "surmene" (and equally "baba kamas" ) was borrowed by all of them.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

you're welcome Ren Ren !

I stumbled upon this youtube film which also shows some interesting maps ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZqomyEdoFU

[ariel]

Ren Ren,
Thanks for the clarification re. ‘Surmene” knives called by Russian historians ‘Circumpontian” to stress that those knives did not belong specifically to the town of Surmene, but were endemic to the entire Adjaro-Gurian areal. Perhaps, there was some justification to using geographical rather than ethnic attribution. It might be difficult to strict separation of ethnicities: for example, Meghrelian and Laz languages are just mutual dialects.

According to Dvalishvili, Laz were premier cutlers of the area, but in 1878 they largely migrated to the Ottoman Empire as “ mukhajirs”. Their names were modified from the original Georgian to Turkish.

A large part of Guria belonged to the Russian Empire well before that moment. Perhaps this is the reason why the so-called “Gurian” kindjals stayed separate from the rest of SW Georgia to the point that their kindjal with minor modifications was adopted by the Russian Black Sea Cossack Host.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

gp, thank you very much for these maps!

Dear colleagues, you can all see how complex and time-varying the political and ethnic map is in the Eastern and Southern Black Sea region! This is a real paradise for ethnographers and linguists, it is a lot of difficulties for historians, and it is a real curse for experts in ethnic conflicts. There is probably only one other equally complex region in the world - Southwest China with adjacent areas of Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Tibet. In a related topic, Ariel asked why Russian scientists have done so little to link museum objects and their ethnic origin? In Russia, historians of weapons prefer to use descriptive names in the literature with reference to geographical origin. The ethnic name, if specified, is used as an optional one. In particular, the knife, persistently referred to as "surmene", is called the "circumpontian knife" (циркумпонтийский нож). This term is derived from the Greek word "Pont" (short for "Pont Euxin" - the Black Sea) and the Latin "circum" - around. Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife - a similar type was found along the entire coast of the Black Sea, possibly with the exception of its Western part (the territory of modern Bulgaria and Romania). The peoples who lived there spoke languages ​​belonging to at least four different language groups. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the name "surmene" (and equally "baba kamas" ) was borrowed by all of them.

Thank you very very much for this contribution: so if I make a kind of interpretation of “ Lazistan does not have a monopoly on the design of this knife “ it could well be that the design of a Surmene dagger could have washed up at the shore of Bulgaria & Romania during the Ottoman period ? And hence “entered” the former Yugoslavia; through the connection Bulgaria-Macedonia and travelled more up north to Serbia and Bosnia…? Specially taking into consideration that hardly anything is written about the small arms like kamas, bichaqs and such…
Reference to my reply in the bichaq thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=86

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=96

Or do you think I am wrong and the assumption is incorrect? And just a silly speculation…? Or still a possibility as I originally was and am convinced there was an interaction…?
Being no scolar myself…just a simple collector with a few books and small library on Ex Yu and BiH Ottoman cold weapons…

[Ren Ren]

I think that it is quite possible that there was an Ottoman influence at a time when the Black Sea was an inland sea of ​​the Ottoman Empire. But I also propose to pay attention to the Greek influence, which lasted for two thousand years more than the Ottoman. Greek communities existed in all the notable ports of both the Black Sea and the Adriatic coast. I was told that the Greek community has always been a prominent part of the ethnic picture of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
I would also like to draw your attention to the islands of the Aegean and Mediterranean seas. There were very interesting designs of knives, of which only the knives of the island of Crete are well known. A friend of mine visited Cyprus about 10 years ago and through his perseverance met one of the last blacksmiths who made traditional knives that were somewhat popular with local butchers. These were very curious knives in a characteristic style, where, if desired, one could find both features of the Ottoman influence and structural elements that had existed in the Hellenistic world for about 2000 years.

[ariel]

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance, whereas the rest were totally or at the least significantly influenced by Islam and 100% controlled by the Ottomans. All historiographic and iconographic sources confirm that crucial distinction.
What artistic signs of Greek military tradition are we talking about? Greece was a Roman province for ~6-7 centuries and under Byzantine rule for yet another millennium. After that it just happened to fall into the Ottoman division of the Balkans. Overall, between 2nd century BC and 19 th century CE Greece was just a province of mighty foreign empires. It still was viewed with high respect and largely defined intellectual and partly artistic/cultural spheres, but militarily it was totally subsumed by all of them. Look at the pictures of Greeks during their War of Independence: they wear traditional Greek garb, but carry Ottoman weapons.


Greece was a cradle of human civilization in virtually all spheres: science, medicine, art, architecture, literature, drama, history etc., but militarily its influence withered away since Alexander the Great. It was, perhaps, far too small a country to sustain any military might and dictate world-wide weapon patterns vs. humongous Empires of the New Era.

[Battara]

I think Ariel has a good point here of Ottoman influence being in the entire region.

[gp]

Originally Posted by ariel

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance,

I was not aware that Slovenia produced any weapons; can you give me some more info, details and if possible examples and pictures ? thnx ☼

[gp]

stumbled upon this quite interesting film on a Laz bichaq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DI6HH9iVxI

[serdar]

Originally Posted by gp

I was not aware that Slovenia produced any weapons; can you give me some more info, details and if possible examples and pictures ? thnx ☼

Slovenia didnt produce any weapons.
He forgot Montenegro, they used taken ottoman weapons from defeated ottomans, and were never under ottomans from 16-19 century.
They made weapons in Boka Kotorska, but mainly used weapons from defeated Ottomans and bought weapons from Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and Croatia.

[serdar]

Originally Posted by ariel

AFAIK, all Balkan bladed weapons were at the very least heavily ( or totally) influenced by their Ottoman counterparts. The obvious exceptions are Croatia ( partially) and Slovenia ( largely free). Those two stayed within the borders of Western Christian dominance, whereas the rest were totally or at the least significantly influenced by Islam and 100% controlled by the Ottomans. All historiographic and iconographic sources confirm that crucial distinction.
What artistic signs of Greek military tradition are we talking about? Greece was a Roman province for ~6-7 centuries and under Byzantine rule for yet another millennium. After that it just happened to fall into the Ottoman division of the Balkans. Overall, between 2nd century BC and 19 th century CE Greece was just a province of mighty foreign empires. It still was viewed with high respect and largely defined intellectual and partly artistic/cultural spheres, but militarily it was totally subsumed by all of them. Look at the pictures of Greeks during their War of Independence: they wear traditional Greek garb, but carry Ottoman weapons.


Greece was a cradle of human civilization in virtually all spheres: science, medicine, art, architecture, literature, drama, history etc., but militarily its influence withered away since Alexander the Great. It was, perhaps, far too small a country to sustain any military might and dictate world-wide weapon patterns vs. humongous Empires of the New Era.

You forgot old montenegro, which was never ocupied by turks from 16-19 century they defeated dvery ottoman atack, and they used all ottoman weapons they took from defeated turks.

[Boleg]

Originally Posted by gp

Interesting here is the fact that taking into consideration:

1. the word "kama" originates from Armenia
2. looking at the geography map of the region:

- Armenia
- Georgia and hence the Adjaro-Guria part (migration of the Laz people called Mingrelian)
- Turkey and its Laz region

looking at the geopolitical changes through the centuries ( even from the Persian an Roman times) and explained in this article:
https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/13727/gg

it seems no claim to a certain territory can be made and determination of items is quite "challenging"due to the interaction during the centuries.

Are Laz Gurians or are Gurians Laz people or are there many more we can call Laz people(s)...?

Last but not least Surmene knives come now..or at least the last century....from the Trabzon region...and....according to these maps....that is or was part of Lazistan;
so no surprise about the "Grussian " / Georgian connection

I am sorry if continuing this discussion is against the format of the website but as a Turk I just couldn't hold back considering the wild and completely unfounded claims this guy was making about a region he does not understand.

KAMA is a Turkish word, no etymology in Armenian. In Turkic it probably comes from Kakma(k), meaning pushing or in this case stabbing. And even if we take it as Armenian it doesn't help your argument at all it still came to the Balkan Slavs via Ottomans?

Baba simply means dad in Turkish no argument to be had here

Baba is also used in Turkish to define things that are big and mighty, so maybe here in this instance it was to denote that the kama was big!
The word kama is used everywhere in Turkish Ottoman empire, not just the Caucasus and Balkan region which again means it has nothing to do with Russians, and besides the word Kama doesn't even exist among Russians.

Lastly I want to clear the misunderstanding you guys have on the topic of Lazistan. There were very few to no Laz in Trabzon because most Lazic people were converted to Greek Orthodoxy before the Turks even came. The official and cultural region of Lazistan falls to the east of Trabzon Sürmene. Trabzon was never a part of the Lazistan sandjak, it was the opposite, Lazistan was a part of the Trabzon VİLAYET. Vilayet is a bigger administrative term that is made up of sandjaks, the Trabzon Vilayet was made up of the Djanik, Trabzon, Gümüşhane and Lazistan sandjaks.

[gp]

Originally Posted by Boleg

I am sorry if continuing this discussion is against the format of the website but as a Turk I just couldn't hold back considering the wild and completely unfounded claims this guy was making about a region he does not understand.

KAMA is a Turkish word, no etymology in Armenian. In Turkic it probably comes from Kakma(k), meaning pushing or in this case stabbing. And even if we take it as Armenian it doesn't help your argument at all it still came to the Balkan Slavs via Ottomans?

Baba simply means dad in Turkish no argument to be had here

Baba is also used in Turkish to define things that are big and mighty, so maybe here in this instance it was to denote that the kama was big!
The word kama is used everywhere in Turkish Ottoman empire, not just the Caucasus and Balkan region which again means it has nothing to do with Russians, and besides the word Kama doesn't even exist among Russians.

I am sorry if I offended you but nationality doesn't mean automatically one is a specialist on knowlegde or the only one entitled to comment, nor does it imply others are talking nonsense.
We all are to be very careful in claiming this ...

Although you do not know me at all, if I follow your thought that I am ignorent of your region, and I do not feel offended by "this guy" let me first wish you Ramazan Mubarak, Effendi !☼

I could refer to your great Dede Korkut "Kara saçuŋ dolaşmışını daraġ yazar." but think that to be not contributing much to our discussion and rather would prefer and like to invite you to meet me conform "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there." as written by the great man in Konya... Mevlana.

As for baba, yes in Turkish it is male but in Slavic:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...to-Slavic/baba

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B0


so let us respect eachother and not just jump to conclusions too early and too fast, arkadash!

"You are not a drop in the ocean, you are the ocean in a drop." (Rumi)


best regards

Gunar