Fencing, Dueling and Rapiers in Spanish Colonial California

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful and perfectly explained response and for the kind words.
In posting this I honestly was less than optimistic for responses. The fencing topic alone is profoundly esoteric here, and the field of Spanish colonial weapons even more so.

I very much appreciate the detailed notes and suggestions concerning the destreza and some of these early fencing systems, outstanding insights into these. As you note, Wiki seems an often maligned and far underrated resource, which is not intended to serve as primary research....but a preliminary overview with references and bibliography to be used to follow whatever course of research is at hand on the topic.

I have some familiarity with some of this, but your suggestions for further research are excellent and give me important ideas to follow.
I have a number of books on some of this , but as you well note, these are not often at hand (the bookmobile has limited space

Im glad you agree, this is an intriguing subject, the kinds of swordplay which may have been extant in these early days in California from c. 1770s into the mid 19th c. While the population was under Spanish control until 1821, there were few true Spaniards in the early years in the sparsely occupied regions, however the cultural influences that prevailed were notable. If fashion, custom, and other factors were present, then why not the use of the sword?

[midelburgo]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much for this thoughtful and perfectly explained response and for the kind words.
In posting this I honestly was less than optimistic for responses. The fencing topic alone is profoundly esoteric here, and the field of Spanish colonial weapons even more so.

I very much appreciate the detailed notes and suggestions concerning the destreza and some of these early fencing systems, outstanding insights into these. As you note, Wiki seems an often maligned and far underrated resource, which is not intended to serve as primary research....but a preliminary overview with references and bibliography to be used to follow whatever course of research is at hand on the topic.

I have some familiarity with some of this, but your suggestions for further research are excellent and give me important ideas to follow.
I have a number of books on some of this , but as you well note, these are not often at hand (the bookmobile has limited space

Im glad you agree, this is an intriguing subject, the kinds of swordplay which may have been extant in these early days in California from c. 1770s into the mid 19th c. While the population was under Spanish control until 1821, there were few true Spaniards in the early years in the sparsely occupied regions, however the cultural influences that prevailed were notable. If fashion, custom, and other factors were present, then why not the use of the sword?

You have Leguina bibliography of Spanish fencing from 1904 and the much extended one by Manuel Valle from some 10 years ago. In the America's you had the so called destreza Indiana, especially developed in Lima. I remember when Manuel Valle went to Mexico in search of books. California of course was a dependency of Mexico.
Destreza in Spain lasted up to the middle of XIXth century, and then there was a revival at the start of XXth century, that did not survive the Spanish Civil War of 1936_1939.
In the 1980s a curious artistic fencer, Ricard Pous, started recovering it, publishing two books. Later reenactment groups brought it alive again in the 2000s. We used to make fun of the original Martinez videos...
For 15 years the esgrima antigua forum pushed the research and sooner or later all the resources were indexed in pdf.
Now they were quite esoteric for XVII century Spaniards, so much more for English language XXth century readers.
Best and more comprensible of all is second book by Rada.
Some years ago there was even a Mexican destreza group, nothing heard of them in 8 years at least.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Midelburgo, wonderfully done synopsis of this very esoteric material, and important insights to the complex and mysterious practice of this type fencing system.
I have come across come of the things you mention, but your entry here greatly brings it into perspective.

From what I am finding so far, the use of the rapier (proper) was not present notably in the northern frontiers or Alta California, but there was presence of the small sword.

More research needed of course!!!
I thank you guys again for your valuable help and above all, support!

[midelburgo]

Actually one of the last written books for Destreza.

Principios universales y reglas generales de la verdadera destreza del espadín : segun la doctrina mixta de... (1805) - by Manuel Antonio de Brea.

was so for smallsword.

https://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/es...tro.do?id=9776

Possibly this would be the closest to El Zorro fencing manual you could find...


Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

Actually one of the last written books for Destreza.

Principios universales y reglas generales de la verdadera destreza del espadín : segun la doctrina mixta de... (1805) - by Manuel Antonio de Brea.

was so for smallsword.

https://bibliotecadigital.jcyl.es/es...tro.do?id=9776

Possibly this would be the closest to El Zorro fencing manual you could find...


Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

Thank you again!
In a 1927 paper I found that in the northwest colonial regions of Mexico and New Mexico small swords were present, and one of the forms was colichemarde. I have yet to find more, but I suspect that small sword blades were produced in Bilbao which was a port exporting to the colonies.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

...
Yesterday I got this 1meter long Colichemarde with functional pas d'ane. A not so small smallsword, probably Spanish.

I gather that Colichemardes were in general all around a metre, considereably longer than an average smallsword. George Washington is frequently painted with his favourite colichemarde.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

I gather that Colichemardes were in general all around a metre, considereably longer than an average smallsword. George Washington is frequently painted with his favourite colichemarde.

Thanks Wayne,
Actually I am not certain about lengths of these blades' generality, but the initial course of their development with the widened forte for parry, and the foible remaining narrow for speed seems to have been attuned to dueling. With that being the case with the attention to the requirement for a fast blade, it seems shorter was the preference.

In the case of the forementioned colichemarde suggesting its possibly being Spanish, I would say that might be supported by the 39" blade. Spaniards favored remarkably long blades, one rapier blade I have is 41" (of traditional narrow form c. 1700), but I have heard of up to 45".

Ive heard of Washington's colichemarde, and it is noted that while these were out of favor in the civilian sector they remained popular with military through the 18th c.

[kronckew]

I was referring to the overall length. Mine is just over 38 in. long, 33 inch blade.


GW's Colichemarde: Mt. Vernon collection. (Not on Display)



a hair or two over a metre long.