A peculiar 1796 Pattern 'Spadroon'

[Bryce]

G'day Jim,
I agree this isn't the sort of blade you would expect to find on a mortuary hilt like mine, but it is exactly the sort of blade you would find on an early 18th Century basket-hilt. The scabbard would have been custom made for this blade when it was mounted on the boat-shell hilt. They weren't making blades like this in the 1780's/90's. Regarding the condition of the blade. There are plenty of examples of much older blades in pristine condition. As long as a blade is looked after, it can stay in pristine condition for centuries. You wouldn't remount an older blade if it was already in poor condition.
Cheers,
Bryce

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
I agree this isn't the sort of blade you would expect to find on a mortuary hilt like mine, but it is exactly the sort of blade you would find on an early 18th Century basket-hilt. The scabbard would have been custom made for this blade when it was mounted on the boat-shell hilt. They weren't making blades like this in the 1780's/90's. Regarding the condition of the blade. There are plenty of examples of much older blades in pristine condition. As long as a blade is looked after, it can stay in pristine condition for centuries. You wouldn't remount an older blade if it was already in poor condition.
Cheers,
Bryce

I agree Bryce, the blades being made in the 1790s were either hollow ground wide fuller, or the Montmorency type fullered blades typically used by Wooley. It does seem the fullering here may be of the type seen on the British examples of 1750s in the units using basket hilts still.

If this was a heirloom blade, and the officer had it custom mounted to wear at dress occasions, why would they custom make a scabbard of field service form rather than the leather and brass types made for dress wear.?

Good point on remounting a blade in poor condition, whether heirloom or not.

[Radboud]

Quick question for Jim and Bryce, does 'heirloom blade' have a specific meaning for you that I may have missed?

I was thinking in terms of 'this is the sword my father passed on to me from his service' rather than 'this is the sword my ancestors carried at battle X' the latter implying more age to the blade.

On another forum, Richard Dellar posted a photo showing two 1796 Heavy Cavalry swords from the same officer in the Scotts Greys (Undress and dress) that have Andrea Ferara blades on them. But as you point out Jim, the 1796 for Dismounted service has a leather scabbard. I suspect there is still a lot that is not known around the reasons some have steel scabbards while others have leather.

Cheers
Bas

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Radboud

Quick question for Jim and Bryce, does 'heirloom blade' have a specific meaning for you that I may have missed?

I was thinking in terms of 'this is the sword my father passed on to me from his service' rather than 'this is the sword my ancestors carried at battle X' the latter implying more age to the blade.

On another forum, Richard Dellar posted a photo showing two 1796 Heavy Cavalry swords from the same officer in the Scotts Greys (Undress and dress) that have Andrea Ferara blades on them. But as you point out Jim, the 1796 for Dismounted service has a leather scabbard. I suspect there is still a lot that is not known around the reasons some have steel scabbards while others have leather.

Cheers
Bas

Hi Bas,
The ANDREA FERARA suggests this blade has a 'heirloom' Scottish potential, as that name was a key tradition in the blades carried by Highlanders. It is understood that that term here suggests a family blade, but the implication is that it is from a Scottish source.

For me, I think my perspective has been based on the proscription of weapons in Scotland after 1746. The exceptions were those produced in less than Scottish tradition but following rudimentary form. I had been under the impression that the ANDREA FERARA 'brand' on blades effectively passed under these circumstances.

Dont get me wrong, this is an extremely attractive sword, and distinct anomaly. I had not been aware of the Scots Greys swords with Andrea Ferara blades posted by Richard Dellar, but would really like to see them. It makes perfect sense that with Scottish officers would wish to carry forth this marking tradition.
You note they are dress and undress, which suggests one is this boat shell and the other ''honey suckle' ?

The thing with the steel scabbards is that they were confined to field or campaign swords used by officers (sometimes selected examples of 'fighting' swords they chose) or obviously troopers swords.
For officers dress swords, to be worn at official events, levees, and dress occasions wearing dress uniform. The leather and brass scabbards were of course, 'dressy' but fragile.

My question was if this was a custom mounting of a heirloom (or other than usual) blade in this dress sword, and this hilt was chosen for such occasions..so it would not suffer damage on campaign, and scabbards were special made for such instances.....then why defer to a steel service scabbard which seems to be a regular M1796 heavy cavalry trooper or undress sword?

It is strictly meant in a 'devils advocate' posture, not to challenge the sword.
The examples you mention from Richard Dellar strengthen this being a sound example from a Scottish officer and increase my intrigue with this sword!

[Radboud]

Hi Jim,

Please don't misunderstand me, your comments, including the 'devils advocate' ones are appreciated and taken in the spirit of learning.

I try to remain pragmatic about these things, the sword, or its parts are likely to be 200 plus years old (older than the founding document of my country!). That is a lot of time for things to happen that are difficult to unravel and I purchased it mostly because it appealed to me as an oddity. The possible Scottish connection is a nice touch because it brings us a tiny fraction closer to who the original owner might have been.

Regarding the iron scabbard, maybe the officer ordered two but the leather one was lost or didn't survive?

I have asked Richard if I can post his photo here, but he has not replied to my message so I will wait.

However, yes, one sword (a backsword with three narrow fullers) has a ladder hilt and an iron scabbard while the other is a broadsword (double-edged with a single short fuller) with a boat-shell hilt and a leather scabbard. Both are more 'Scottish' looking blades than is usual of the 1796 pattern heavy cavalry swords. Richard commented that the dress sword is reasonably balanced and that blades were often cut down when re-hilted.

This was posted in reply to my post about this sword on the Antique Sword Forum that he moderates.

[Radboud]

Hi Jim,

Coming back to the iron scabbard, I've had a look through my reference photos and this style is fairly typical for 'field service' scabbards on 1796 Pattern officer swords with the boat-shell guard.

Cheers
Bas

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Bas,
Thank you so much for this response, and for reaching me privately on the swords you mention involving Richard Dellar. Those two examples, apparently with sound provenance, perfectly answer my questions regarding what seems to be a known practice with Scottish officers in at least some degree.

The variation in the Andrea Ferara markings would appear to be a normal circumstance with these earlier Scottish blades coming from different Solingen makers, who had these applied in expectedly different interpretations.
That these two swords, from the same family, would be held and only sold as a pair, highlights the provenance as well as integrity of the seller.

It also illustrates your suggestion of a Scottish officer having two 'heirloom' (family) blades used in swords for both dress and campaign situations.
I would suspect that these swords may be the subject of further research and publication so possibly deferring on more on them likely the best course. Very prudently handled on your part with this.

I have learned from this discussion notably, and look forward to the arrival of the sword, and hopefully more research forthcoming.

Best regards
Jim