A Strange Discussion on Indian Weapons

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 06:44 PM

These Tatar sabres with their distinctive needle points( by the hilts termed 'ordynka' ) are fascinating, and I always marveled at how these ultra thin points could be used without snapping off. While in pitched or standing combat is one thing, but on horseback even in position the dynamic movements of the horse and the opponent would seem bad for a blade imbedded through mail.

With this type point, that brings me to the fabled 'flyssa' of the Kabyles in Algeria, and with the Ottoman presence there I always wondered if the Circassian elements among Ottoman forces brought such influence to the needle points on many flyssa.

While again digressing geographically it goes to the effect of armor piercing blades.

ariel · 2nd November 2018, 08:42 PM

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

I guess the point was that influences in weapons diffuse and transcend all boundaries (much as digressions as seen here).....and I too recall the many discussions where it was largely agreed that the 'flyssa' probably evolved from early yataghan forms. The mention of the 'ordynka' term was referring to the needle point example pictured. ....simply a term noted in the Ostrowski article among others used in Polish parlance for this hilt form.

As you note, the 'newer' form which had the 'needle' point seems to have been from somewhat pre-1850s (the earliest example I found with provenance was a French Foreign Legion museum in France, 1857).

Thanks for the photo of this outstanding tulwar, with what you accurately note as Afghan or northwest India blade (the Persian influence). The bolstered point as seen on katars seems way incongruent with a slashing sabre. I honestly have not heard of warriors using tulwars 'giving point'...and a blade as wide as this would not split mail....but may penetrate heavy cloth. Ponderous example.

ariel · 2nd November 2018, 09:08 PM

If we went so far in our digressions, any documented evidence in favor ( or against) flissa being a stabbing weapon? Or slashing?
Maghribean cavalry ( just like Aravian) was riding camels and the very height of that obnoxious creature may explain the length of " newer" flissas. But I have a problem imagining flissas as slashers. May be totally wrong, though.

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2018, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

If we went so far in our digressions, any documented evidence in favor ( or against) flissa being a stabbing weapon? Or slashing?
Maghribean cavalry ( just like Aravian) was riding camels and the very height of that obnoxious creature may explain the length of " newer" flissas. But I have a problem imagining flissas as slashers. May be totally wrong, though.

With the forbearance of Jens and the mods, the 'stabbing'capacity of the 'needle pointed' swords including the Tatar sabres and flyssa is being considered with regard to that of bolstered blades on katars.

It seems the conundrum of the flyssa, much as with any of these needle pointed edged weapons remains unresolved. Even in the French campaigns in and near Kabylia in 1857, while these were captured, there is no known mentio of their manner of use. The long, heavy and unwieldy blade (handling one of these is anything but balanced) seems extremely unlikely for either thrust or slashing.

In most of what I have learned on these, they seem more a traditional 'rite of passage' weapon than actual combat piece. Again, in the theme of the discussion here, we simply do not know.

Rick · 3rd November 2018, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas..

But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-)

Here is another sword with reinforced point.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2018, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Here is another sword with reinforced point.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kirach

This 'reinforced' look at the point, now that I look at it more, is very much like British cavalry sabres of M1821 and later. The general idea of these was that they were functional for both cut and thrust, the ridge at the point extended as far as the hollowed out fuller of the blade all the way to the forte.

There were a lot of problems with these swords as they often bent and broke in these uses and a lot of 'retooling' was needed. The 1821s didnt get back into production until 1829 after several years hiatus.

Perhaps these Indian tulwar blades are taken after the British cavalry blades, as there were outfitters privately supplying units in India.

The ridged reinforcement feature at the tip seems to correspond to those on katars and the concept was intended for the thrust.

If I can recall correctly, in 1962 Gerhard Seifert ("Schert Degen Sabel") tried to classify some features of cavalry sabres, and this type was termed 'CENTER POINT' as opposed to the simple point 'spear point'.

ariel · 3rd November 2018, 04:01 AM

Very interesting.
As I recall, there are descriptions of Indian swordplay by the Brits: according to them , Indians did not parry and did not use the thrust.
And here are two quintessential Indian blades with a deliberate thrusting feature.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2018, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Very interesting.
As I recall, there are descriptions of Indian swordplay by the Brits: according to them , Indians did not parry and did not use the thrust.
And here are two quintessential Indian blades with a deliberate thrusting feature.

That is true, in true Indian combat techniques, it was considered that the dhal shield was for the parry, and of course the sabre (tulwar) was used for cutting and slashing attack. However, the Native Indian cavalry units in the British Raj, used the British swords in many cases.

Actually, these units often selected their types of swords and while some wanted their native tulwars (I have seen examples made by Mole in Birmingham) and these may have been produced in some degree by military outfitters in India.

One of the most favored sabres was the British M1796, and often there were tulwars carrying these older blades....so much so that the British producers in England kept producing stirrup hilt form M1796 well into 1880s+

Some of the Native units however chose the M1821 sabres......which of course seemed contrary to the typical Indian type of use as they usually favored the heavy slashing blades of the 1796. Even the colonial model three bar hilts like the 1821 made in the 1880s had a 'hatchet point' blade.

The appearance of this 'center point' tip on these Indian sabres is truly an anamoly, and in my thinking must have some influence from British military swords as noted. Still the idea of the thrust was not normally considered favorably in India, so these points are as previously noted, unusual.

Mercenary · 3rd November 2018, 07:35 PM

In India (how boldly we are speaking about the whole subcontinent and 1000 years of documented history) used talwar for thrust and parrying, Hanuman had not forbidden this, but do not forget about the peasants who seasonally engaged in military service - to cut with a talwar and to parry with a dhal - what could be more reliable?

2nd November 2018, 08:42 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, Jim, first we do not have to invike the Ottomans as stand-up for Golden Horde nomads ( see the Mongol saber ). Second, I have no recollection where I read it, but really old flissas were very much yataghan-like ( I have one of those), without the exaggerated point of the newer and longer flissas.. But here are promised pics of the Tulwar, with suspiciously Afghani blade and reinforced point. Somehow I do not believe it was constructed with a spit in mind:-) Attached Images

2nd November 2018, 06:44 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	These Tatar sabres with their distinctive needle points( by the hilts termed 'ordynka' ) are fascinating, and I always marveled at how these ultra thin points could be used without snapping off. While in pitched or standing combat is one thing, but on horseback even in position the dynamic movements of the horse and the opponent would seem bad for a blade imbedded through mail. With this type point, that brings me to the fabled 'flyssa' of the Kabyles in Algeria, and with the Ottoman presence there I always wondered if the Circassian elements among Ottoman forces brought such influence to the needle points on many flyssa. While again digressing geographically it goes to the effect of armor piercing blades.

2nd November 2018, 09:08 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If we went so far in our digressions, any documented evidence in favor ( or against) flissa being a stabbing weapon? Or slashing? Maghribean cavalry ( just like Aravian) was riding camels and the very height of that obnoxious creature may explain the length of " newer" flissas. But I have a problem imagining flissas as slashers. May be totally wrong, though.

3rd November 2018, 04:01 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very interesting. As I recall, there are descriptions of Indian swordplay by the Brits: according to them , Indians did not parry and did not use the thrust. And here are two quintessential Indian blades with a deliberate thrusting feature.

3rd November 2018, 07:35 PM	#10
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	In India (how boldly we are speaking about the whole subcontinent and 1000 years of documented history) used talwar for thrust and parrying, Hanuman had not forbidden this, but do not forget about the peasants who seasonally engaged in military service - to cut with a talwar and to parry with a dhal - what could be more reliable?