ratcheting mechanism on Spanish Navajas

[fernando]

Originally Posted by fernando

... Probably because i am not introduced to mechanic techniques i am not convinced that the purpose of multiple teeth is that of a continuous prevention of an unwanted blade folding, but the developing of a tradition more directed to a cultural attitude than a technical solution...

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... Could have started as a cultural/legal requirement and then became an entrenched tradition...

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle. It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic, in lack of a better argument the effect of the rattle (carraca) serves nothing but dissuassion/intimidation.
One member recalls an anecdote:
"During the uprising on the 2nd May 1808 against the French army, the early morning gathered hundreds of people in Puerta del Sol, as news of various confrontations for Madrid were heating up their moods. Suddenly one only voice among the crowd shouted, Hurray for the French, Viva el Rey, Viva España. The following noise which followed that shout was that of hundreds of ratchets being unfolded one after the other, cri cri cri ... all with the same purpose ..."

Here is the link, for those familiar with castillian:

http://armasblancas.mforos.com/93317...ue-la-carraca/

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the Frech were the enemies. That was the moment when the Spanish people rebelled against the French invaders and fought them with navajas, and tools for livestock management (rejones and garrochas) against the mameluke cavalry.

In the same thread from that forum they mention the intimidating effect of a repeating shotgun beign loaded. Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention. Bad quality of the materials in a mechanism does not invalidate the need of a mechanism, or its utility. I must agree that this mechanism originally has a safety purpose, which in time involved more cultural-oriented purposes. The sound of the ratchet is intimidating against an unarmed agressor, and same is the sound of loading a semi handgun. The potential effect of disuasiveness in this situation is undeniable. It is a way to stop an unarmed agressor. And it works!, but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it. But the the same apply for the case of the fireweapons. And also this could became also as an marketing identifier of this Spanish navajas, along their charcteristic traditional profile. Yes, as Fernando says, it could became a cultural-oriented tradition. But the original function was other.

[Chris Evans]

Gonzalo,

Sound effect of semi and auto guns beign loaded is intimidating, but the mechanism has not that intention.

A point very well made!

......but not against hardened criminals who does not believe you are going to actually use the weapon or to dare to, or that you don't know how to use it properly or when they are so intoxicated that they don't care about it.

Succintly put, this is the main problem with this hypothesis.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Actually, the translation would be: "Let's go over the French, hurray for the king, hurray for Spain". Don't forget that the French were the enemies...

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I know the French were the enemies; i just made a wrong translation for "a por los". I took it that, the one only shouting voice was that of a traitor welcoming the French, and the "hurray for the King" was to Napoleon's older brother José, whom he appointed King of Spain in 1808, the date of the anecdote, remaining until 1813. And so the navajas ratchet explosion would be to react against him .

Very understandable, Fernando. "A por los.." is an old castilian expression, not used anymore. Meaning more or less "Let's fall over the French" or, as Chris said, "Let's attack the French". The king referred was not Pepe Botella (José Bonaparte), as he was commonly called by the Spanish population for his excessive inclination toward drinking, but Fernado VII.
Regards

[fernando]

This is somehow raining in the wet but ...
Looks like Mr. Abel Domenech, with all his knowledge, doesn't have a doubteless explanation for the carraca either, as he starts by admiting that, the (real) reason for it is lost in time. That the noise of carracas may be prevented by lifting the backspring is evident; but the basic idea was to produce noise, or one would have bought a silent one, with a palanquilla only. And then i go again wondering whether the safety factor, sustained by some (several) opinions, could not be developed with techniques other than that of containing the said emphatic noise.
But definitely the carraca riddle is a geneal disease.
It is amazing how, in an comprehensice (328 pages) work called INTRODUCCION AL ESTUDIO DE LA CUCHILLERIA ARTISTICA DE ALBACETE, by José Sanchez Ferrer, we may see detailed pictures of navaja construction as well as detailed data on the birth of the navaja, complemented with carraca notes but, the reason for its existance versus the angle of safety ... zero words. However the preciousness in its making as well of its charismatic noise is well pointed out.
The author emphasizes that, having heard of carracas with up to fifteen pinions, the maximum he saw was one with twelve, kept in the National Antropology Museum. And according to what artisan Pepe Exposito told the author, a carraca is well made when the volume of the successive sounds that it emits when unfolding the blade go from minor to greater until the final one is noticed, this one having a different tone, the lodging of the blade in the spring.
We may see in the uploaded pictures that, at least one Albacete master makes the carrava teeth very sharp and inclined; possibly other techniques make round and softer.
Interesting also the author notes on the navaja date of birth, an issue often wondered and discussed.

Here is the ARTICLE and the written parts that i emphasize, so that my lousy translation may be corrected.


.

[Gonzalo G]

Thank you for the link, Fer!!

As you said, there is no absolute certainty about the subject. Only more or less reasonable probabilities. Unless we find unequivocal references on the primary sources.
Regards

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

Thanks for posting the material on the navaja. I have that book and several others, but as you say nobody wants to commit themselves to an explanation.

Well, at least Abel Domenech tried.... His opinion re safety may or may not have been the main reason for the adoption of the carraca, but does make some kind of sense.

I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!

As for the date when the navaja appeared, that is also lost in the mist of time because there are no surviving specimens that predate 1699. In any event, dating navajas is very difficult because few had the year of manufacture stamped on them and the best one can do is to correlate the typology with paintings and other descriptions

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

... I think that nowadays it has become an expected feature by those who buy this obsolete knife - Makes a good conversation topic!...

Yes indeed, Chris; specially handled by two so knowledged members ... and resistant to brain pickers like this humble servant of yours . Surely the info you have exchanged about this subject is of interest to many others, this thread having already reached almost a thousand views.
Despite these knives being an obsolete "tool" in practical terms, they surely constitute a rather interesting collectible item.
I regret having got rid of my few examples; the only one i have left is this palanquilla 'functional' example ... with 35 mm. (1 1/2") length open and weighing less than 1 gram. Note the care had by the "smith" to replicate all components with their indicated mterials ... and accept my appologies for this impertinent inclusion .

.

[Chris Evans]

Fernando,

I was lurking in a Spanish blades forum how Spaniards untangle the ratchet riddle.

Thanks for the link. I read that thread and it seems to me that other than the wear caused by the ratchet teeth, they were engaged in the same guessing game as we are.

I found posts 4 and 12 interesting.

Re post 19: Gonzalo is right in that the popular sentiment was against the French; Whereas your translation, as I read it, is ambiguous could be read as let us go over to their side. Something like "let us attack the French....", whilst not a literal translation, would have conveyed the intent better.

It seems as they don't possess the craking themselves, but what comes out of their brainstorm is that, while the technical part may consist in a handicap as, if the materials are not first grade, the scoops wear out and the safety becomes problemtic,

I am very familiar with this all too common problem, particularly with the cheaper renditions.

A well made navaja ratchet has the peak of the teeth slightly rounded so that it does not cut away the back spring, which by necessity is softer than the blade.

Cheers
Chris