When in India "died" wootz?

Jim McDougall · 19th February 2016, 11:28 PM

Still remaining intrigued by this topic, I thought it time to revisit Egerton (Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms", 1880), and found some interesting contemporary observations:

pp.56-59,

"Wootz or Indian steel exported from Cutch to ports on Persian Gulf".
p.57,
"the Indian steel, however, has never equaled the European in toughness and flexibility. It is either too brittle , like the best tempered blades, or soft and easily bent like some of the blades used in Southern India".
(this cited from Walhouse, in the 'Indian Antiquary' 1878)

He notes Wilkinson describing the manufacture of steel,
"...the iron of Hyderabad is said to furnish the best steel exported to Persia"
Further he notes the Persian merchants who frequent the furnaces say that in Persia they have in vain endeavored to imitate the steel formed from it. It is found at Konasanundrum and Dimdurti, twenty miles east of Nirmsal and is made from a magnetic iron ore diffused in a sandstone looking gneiss or schist, passing by insensible degrees into hornblende slate.

It is noted that 3/5 of this iron is mixed with 2/5 from the Indore District where ore appears to be a peroxide and that mixing of the two must have some effect on the crystallization producing the beautiful 'water'.
p.58
The name of Arnachellam of Salem as an armourer has been known over the past 50 years in India (remember Egerton wrote in 1880).

The excellent steel of Coimbatore and North Arcot is much used. At Elgundel there is a manufacture of swords, daggers and spearheads of the steel obtained there.

p.59
In Mysore the iron is made from the black sand found in the channels of all the rivers. Near Seringpatam there are FIVE FORGES where steel is made, principally FOR EXPORTATION. It is used for stonecutters chisels and sword blades.

The swords of Persia are so generally worn by Indian rajahs that the process converting Indian steel into these finely watered blades must be mentioned,
and he describes Ispahan, Khorassan, Kazveen and Shiraz as THE LAST PLACES SWORD BLADES chiefly made.

In looking through these references, which I add here as talking points regarding elements of our discussion, I am wondering about some of the notes...for example, the forges in Mysore making steel.......it seems unlikely that wootz would be used for chisels! ? so then was this regular type steel (sword blades as noted) ? or indeed wootz as suggested in the earlier notes.

So we seem to have a substantial industry of steel producing in these regions c. 1870s but how much was actual wootz to me seems unclear.
That the Persians would visit the forges and not be able to imitate the steel suggests perhaps some sort of consistency in the ore? as certainly they would have seen the process being performed.

estcrh · 20th February 2016, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In looking through these references, which I add here as talking points regarding elements of our discussion, I am wondering about some of the notes...for example, the forges in Mysore making steel.......it seems unlikely that wootz would be used for chisels! ? so then was this regular type steel (sword blades as noted) ? or indeed wootz as suggested in the earlier notes.

Jim, I believe that tools and swords etc were made with crucible steel, but not all items made with crucible steel showed watering as in wootz / damascus steel, that had to do with the method of forging, it was a two part process.

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2016, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I believe that tools and swords etc were made with crucible steel, but not all items made with crucible steel showed watering as in wootz / damascus steel, that had to do with the method of forging, it was a two part process.

Thank you Estcrh! That makes perfect sense.......heck of a learning curve here for me

but its great to finally get the picture together.

estcrh · 20th February 2016, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Estcrh! That makes perfect sense.......heck of a learning curve here for me

but its great to finally get the picture together.

Jim, part of the difficulty in discussing this subject is the terminology, crucible steel is the process used in the middle east, this is what Europeans were after, how to make the high strength crucible steel in mass quantities, while some Europeans did want to learn how to made watered steel the real quest was for the basic crucible steel.

While the Indians made mass quantities of crucible steel it was a very labor intensive process, it also consumed mass quantities of wood. It does not appear that the other crucible steel centers (Buckhara, Persia etc) made crucible steel in the same mass quantities as the Indians. Once the steel was manufactured there was a completely different / complicated process used in the forging method to create watered / wootz / bulat / damascus steel. From mining the ore to having a watered steel blade was a very long and complex affair, yet the Indians and some others were able to carry this out for an extended period of time.

Once the Europeans upset this delicate balance the old system seemed to have collapsed, this appears to have happened very quickly in some areas and a bit slower in others but eventually except in a few isolated areas (from what I have read) the complete process of making crucible steel was lost, with no crucible steel there could be no watered steel as well. There were probably some left over stock and a few small manufactures left but eventually this faded away.

Emanuel · 20th February 2016, 11:30 PM

Just a quick clarification. As I recall from Ann Feuerbach, Richard Furrer, and other smiths, the watering in wootz, or the dendritic structure, was inherent to the ingot. The structure is primarily due to the cooling rate of the crucible at the time of production. Nothing to do with forging method of the tool or blade.

The annealing at constant low temperature was to make the metal soft enough to work without stressing it. Higher temperature break the dendritic structure and destroy the watery effect.

The salt baths mentioned in that account just etched the blade. Apparently etches work better when the metal is warm, as the heat "opens up the grain" for a better reaction with the etchant . Richard and other smiths on the forum please correct me but there is no way of converting a blade that doesn't have the crystalline dendritic structure to one that does. The process occurs when the metal cools from near-liquid phase to a solid. The Central Asian vs. Indian methods differed in both how the crucible was loaded with material, heated, and cooled.

Jim, the question of how many tools were made from crucible steel bugged me too: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20633
Not all crucible steel ended with the crystalline pattern as there was a relatively high failure rate due to poor temperature control.

ariel · 20th February 2016, 11:50 PM

+1.

As to the transmission of skills:
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?

Thus, between 1825 (potential peak of wootz blade forging) and 1900 in these countries there was a turnover of roughly 3 generations. That was on the background of catastrophic decline of wootz manufacture. Thus, there were not enough people living long enough to enter the apprentice pool and acquire skills without economic future; traditions just died out.

Jim McDougall · 21st February 2016, 03:18 AM

This is totally amazing guys! I really had no idea of these dynamics in this processing of steel, and your explanations really bring new dimensions to matters at hand here with production of steel and wootz.

The focus on dendritic structure and how it was key to the production of the wootz, as well as the basic crucible method pursued by the Europeans and long extant in India where they sought its methods say a lot about the circumstances which brought about the very subtle disappearance of the beautiful wootz.

Ariel brings in a most interesting aspect to be factored in, the basic life span of those key to the apparently very delicate methods of production , which seem very much to apply to temperature controls. It seems logical that these relatively short generations of artisans with diminishing demand for the watered steel might play into lack of perpetuation of the necessary skills needed.

On one hand here it sounds like there was a secondary stage in processing the steel from ingot into wootz, while on the other, it was more to the original process which carried into the wootz stage through the control of the temperatures and cooling.

Obviously still not fully understanding , can you guys clarify further?

Meanwhile, I think that the circumstances involving these processes in the mid to latter 19th century might give us better perspective on how this most subtle and thus 'mysterious' disappearance of such an ancient art might have happened virtually 'during broad daylight' of the steel industry itself in this 19th century period.

Battara · 21st February 2016, 04:46 AM

Here is some other information and a theory of why wootz disappeared.

Although the article is fascinating, the section near the end and the conclusion is not as technical.

Note: I met the author and talked with him at a show here in Louisville, KY, USA and was able to look at and handle one of his recreated wootz blades.

estcrh · 21st February 2016, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

On one hand here it sounds like there was a secondary stage in processing the steel from ingot into wootz, while on the other, it was more to the original process which carried into the wootz stage through the control of the temperatures and cooling.

Obviously still not fully understanding , can you guys clarify further?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Just a quick clarification. As I recall from Ann Feuerbach, Richard Furrer, and other smiths, the watering in wootz, or the dendritic structure, was inherent to the ingot. The structure is primarily due to the cooling rate of the crucible at the time of production. Nothing to do with forging method of the tool or blade. .................................................. .
Not all crucible steel ended with the crystalline pattern as there was a relatively high failure rate due to poor temperature control.

Emanual, my understanding is that crucible steel, if properly forged, could show a watered pattern, and the fact that not all crucible steel showed a watered pattern was due to the forging process not being done properly. You can not seperate the two things, just because the steel had the ability to show a watered pattern did not mean every item made from the crucible steel would show a watered pattern, it had to be forged in the right manner or the pattern would not show. The poor temperature control that kept the crucible steel item being forged from showing a watered pattern came during the forging process.

I other words, if just any blacksmith pounded out a blade from a hunk of crucible steel the blade would not show a watered pattern, it took someone with the exact knowledge to forge a blade that showed a watered pattern.

Here is an example that shows the complexity of reproducing the watered pattern using modern steel meant to replicate crucible steel.

Blades Guide to Making Knives, Joe Kertzman, 2012

mahratt · 21st February 2016, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

+1.

As to the transmission of skills:
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?

Thus, between 1825 (potential peak of wootz blade forging) and 1900 in these countries there was a turnover of roughly 3 generations. That was on the background of catastrophic decline of wootz manufacture. Thus, there were not enough people living long enough to enter the apprentice pool and acquire skills without economic future; traditions just died out.

1) I have already given a historical source, proving that in Persia in the 1840s wootz produced (smelted)
2) I have given the information from historical sources that in the 1840s-1850s years in the Bukhara Khanate and Persia did wootz blades.

That means that it's not about the year 1825. Next question. In 1750, the year was a different life? People live longer? I doubt it. But I think this time (1750) - the peak of wootzsteel production.

I think the problem lies elsewhere. To craftsmanship preserved (for example, the production of blades from wootz) - needs constant demand. Until the 1880s, people from Central Asia buy many swords (blades) in Persia. After the Russian conquered Central Asia, the market disappeared.

kronckew · 21st February 2016, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...
Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34.

In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20.

Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years.

Horrifying numbers, aren't they?
...

cold stats. let us not forget that it is an average. people did not just suddenly die at that top 'average' age. the curve was horribly skewed by the very early deaths of many children. people who survived childhood had a much better chance of reaching their fourscore years plus ten.

...and what were the figure for earlier centuries? may have been similar or even worse...see:

(looks like it wasn't much different in earlier years.)

the kamis who forged steel were not high in the caste system, so their bite of the medical system apple was and still is even less. heck, even the west did not know about germs and antisepsis until the second half of the 19c. even london was a foul cesspit of human waste and decay until the great stink of 1858 forced parliament to start building proper sewers, not completed till the mid 1860's. note the improvement in health was not a factor, as they had no idea about germs, they just couldn't stand the smell any more.

if you just consider stats, the unintended consequence of building sewers in london caused the decline of wootz

ariel · 21st February 2016, 02:35 PM

Kronckew,
You are correct: child mortality skews the distribution curves to the right. But that's the only way we can get an idea of the life expectancy.

Estcrh,
Great quote! It takes time to learn wootz forging.
Many bladesmiths in Russia ( just an example I know about) have been dealing with wootz issue for more thn 20 years. Despite all the books, all the achievements of modern metallurgy, modern equipment etc, they are still incapable to reproduce Taban or Khorasan patterns that were routinely made by a barefoot Indian or Iranian in a primitive forge. The secrets of wootz ingot were revealed, but the methods of converting it into a blade still remain a mystery.

ariel · 20th February 2016, 04:45 AM

Jim,
I agree with Estcrh.
Industrial production of steel was introduced to India by the Brits.
Prior to that, Indians used exclusively the old tried-and-true kiln method , making relatively small ingots of crucible steel. Thus, paradoxically, all older Indian steel was "crucible" i.e, potentially wootz-y :-)))
In a way, this is similar to the old European way of making steel by employing bloomery process, separating parts of the bloom with high and low carbon content and then combining them by forging ( identically to the Japanese tamahagane). Thus all old European steel implements ( just like the Japanese ones) were in effect mechanical damascus:-)

Only with the European inventions of methodologies allowing final output of large amounts of uniformly homogeneous product, did we become capable of making truly "plain" steel.

And these processes made both " bloomery Damascus" as well as "crucible wootz" totally obsolete literally overnight.

Funny how the so-called "plain" product was in reality the result of a very complex technological evolution.

20th February 2016, 11:30 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Just a quick clarification. As I recall from Ann Feuerbach, Richard Furrer, and other smiths, the watering in wootz, or the dendritic structure, was inherent to the ingot. The structure is primarily due to the cooling rate of the crucible at the time of production. Nothing to do with forging method of the tool or blade. The annealing at constant low temperature was to make the metal soft enough to work without stressing it. Higher temperature break the dendritic structure and destroy the watery effect. The salt baths mentioned in that account just etched the blade. Apparently etches work better when the metal is warm, as the heat "opens up the grain" for a better reaction with the etchant . Richard and other smiths on the forum please correct me but there is no way of converting a blade that doesn't have the crystalline dendritic structure to one that does. The process occurs when the metal cools from near-liquid phase to a solid. The Central Asian vs. Indian methods differed in both how the crucible was loaded with material, heated, and cooled. Jim, the question of how many tools were made from crucible steel bugged me too: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20633 Not all crucible steel ended with the crystalline pattern as there was a relatively high failure rate due to poor temperature control. Last edited by Emanuel; 21st February 2016 at 12:12 AM.

20th February 2016, 04:45 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I agree with Estcrh. Industrial production of steel was introduced to India by the Brits. Prior to that, Indians used exclusively the old tried-and-true kiln method , making relatively small ingots of crucible steel. Thus, paradoxically, all older Indian steel was "crucible" i.e, potentially wootz-y :-))) In a way, this is similar to the old European way of making steel by employing bloomery process, separating parts of the bloom with high and low carbon content and then combining them by forging ( identically to the Japanese tamahagane). Thus all old European steel implements ( just like the Japanese ones) were in effect mechanical damascus:-) Only with the European inventions of methodologies allowing final output of large amounts of uniformly homogeneous product, did we become capable of making truly "plain" steel. And these processes made both " bloomery Damascus" as well as "crucible wootz" totally obsolete literally overnight. Funny how the so-called "plain" product was in reality the result of a very complex technological evolution. Last edited by ariel; 20th February 2016 at 04:56 AM.

19th February 2016, 11:28 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	Still remaining intrigued by this topic, I thought it time to revisit Egerton (Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms", 1880), and found some interesting contemporary observations: pp.56-59, "Wootz or Indian steel exported from Cutch to ports on Persian Gulf". p.57, "the Indian steel, however, has never equaled the European in toughness and flexibility. It is either too brittle , like the best tempered blades, or soft and easily bent like some of the blades used in Southern India". (this cited from Walhouse, in the 'Indian Antiquary' 1878) He notes Wilkinson describing the manufacture of steel, "...the iron of Hyderabad is said to furnish the best steel exported to Persia" Further he notes the Persian merchants who frequent the furnaces say that in Persia they have in vain endeavored to imitate the steel formed from it. It is found at Konasanundrum and Dimdurti, twenty miles east of Nirmsal and is made from a magnetic iron ore diffused in a sandstone looking gneiss or schist, passing by insensible degrees into hornblende slate. It is noted that 3/5 of this iron is mixed with 2/5 from the Indore District where ore appears to be a peroxide and that mixing of the two must have some effect on the crystallization producing the beautiful 'water'. p.58 The name of Arnachellam of Salem as an armourer has been known over the past 50 years in India (remember Egerton wrote in 1880). The excellent steel of Coimbatore and North Arcot is much used. At Elgundel there is a manufacture of swords, daggers and spearheads of the steel obtained there. p.59 In Mysore the iron is made from the black sand found in the channels of all the rivers. Near Seringpatam there are FIVE FORGES where steel is made, principally FOR EXPORTATION. It is used for stonecutters chisels and sword blades. The swords of Persia are so generally worn by Indian rajahs that the process converting Indian steel into these finely watered blades must be mentioned, and he describes Ispahan, Khorassan, Kazveen and Shiraz as THE LAST PLACES SWORD BLADES chiefly made. In looking through these references, which I add here as talking points regarding elements of our discussion, I am wondering about some of the notes...for example, the forges in Mysore making steel.......it seems unlikely that wootz would be used for chisels! ? so then was this regular type steel (sword blades as noted) ? or indeed wootz as suggested in the earlier notes. So we seem to have a substantial industry of steel producing in these regions c. 1870s but how much was actual wootz to me seems unclear. That the Persians would visit the forges and not be able to imitate the steel suggests perhaps some sort of consistency in the ore? as certainly they would have seen the process being performed.

20th February 2016, 11:50 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	+1. As to the transmission of skills: Average life expectancy in India between 1850 and 1900 was 25 years. In 1950 it rose to 34. In Afghanistan in 1950 it was 28 years,( and that was already on the upswing, so in the second half of the 19th century it must have been ~ 20. Iran in 1951: 41 years. Projected life expectancy in the second half of the 19th century ~30 years. Horrifying numbers, aren't they? Thus, between 1825 (potential peak of wootz blade forging) and 1900 in these countries there was a turnover of roughly 3 generations. That was on the background of catastrophic decline of wootz manufacture. Thus, there were not enough people living long enough to enter the apprentice pool and acquire skills without economic future; traditions just died out.

21st February 2016, 03:18 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,453	This is totally amazing guys! I really had no idea of these dynamics in this processing of steel, and your explanations really bring new dimensions to matters at hand here with production of steel and wootz. The focus on dendritic structure and how it was key to the production of the wootz, as well as the basic crucible method pursued by the Europeans and long extant in India where they sought its methods say a lot about the circumstances which brought about the very subtle disappearance of the beautiful wootz. Ariel brings in a most interesting aspect to be factored in, the basic life span of those key to the apparently very delicate methods of production , which seem very much to apply to temperature controls. It seems logical that these relatively short generations of artisans with diminishing demand for the watered steel might play into lack of perpetuation of the necessary skills needed. On one hand here it sounds like there was a secondary stage in processing the steel from ingot into wootz, while on the other, it was more to the original process which carried into the wootz stage through the control of the temperatures and cooling. Obviously still not fully understanding , can you guys clarify further? Meanwhile, I think that the circumstances involving these processes in the mid to latter 19th century might give us better perspective on how this most subtle and thus 'mysterious' disappearance of such an ancient art might have happened virtually 'during broad daylight' of the steel industry itself in this 19th century period.

21st February 2016, 02:35 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Kronckew, You are correct: child mortality skews the distribution curves to the right. But that's the only way we can get an idea of the life expectancy. Estcrh, Great quote! It takes time to learn wootz forging. Many bladesmiths in Russia ( just an example I know about) have been dealing with wootz issue for more thn 20 years. Despite all the books, all the achievements of modern metallurgy, modern equipment etc, they are still incapable to reproduce Taban or Khorasan patterns that were routinely made by a barefoot Indian or Iranian in a primitive forge. The secrets of wootz ingot were revealed, but the methods of converting it into a blade still remain a mystery.