When in India "died" wootz?

ariel · 18th February 2016, 01:09 PM

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

mahratt · 18th February 2016, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No sense putting words I never said in my mouth.
But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

Why this verbal swordplay?

I have no doubt that you have read a lot of old sources in English. If you have evidence of your words of wootz - I'll be glad to hear.

Ian · 18th February 2016, 03:23 PM

Mahratt and Ariel:

You have a PM from me.

Ian.

ariel · 18th February 2016, 05:02 PM

Mahratt,
Please, I am trying to end this discussion.
You are free to continue and discuss it with whomever you choose, but I said everything I wanted.
Do me a favor and do not involve me in this discussion anymore. I will not respond.
Thanks.

mahratt · 18th February 2016, 05:43 PM

I do not understand, why write in the subject line, if there are no facts. And nothing to say, in addition to known cliches ....

Emanuel · 18th February 2016, 07:29 PM

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades?

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

mahratt · 18th February 2016, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel!
You asked good questions.

1) In 1840, the captain of the Russian army Masalsky in Persia watched wootz steel smelting process. And publishes an article about it in 1842 in "Mining Journal".
2) In 1850-ies Russian travelers noted that in Persia in Tehran do many wootz blades for sale.
3) there Bukhara saber in Russian museum (wootz blade), on which is written, that the master did it in 1860.
4) In the Russian museums have some Bukharian swords and sabers from wootz steel, which were donated from the Emir of Bukhara in 1880-1890 years.

On the situation in India, I totally agree with you. And you're right that the local production of wootz steel in India would continue (small amounts) until the end of the 19th century (Maybe).

Jim McDougall · 18th February 2016, 09:05 PM

Now that's what I'm talking about!!! Thank you Emanuel for such perfectly posed questions and comments! As one who is seriously (and desperately) trying to learn about this seemingly elusive topic on wootz, these are exactly the things I would wish to learn more on.

I do know that in India, the actual production of wootz ingots was heavily impeded in the mid 19th c. by British authorities, and as noted, the railways and infrastructure being implemented there was bringing in not only their steel product but production methods in degree.

I have always been under the impression that the wootz used in Persia for their blade production had been supplied from India. If that was the case, then where did they acquire material for continued production ? Did they have their own sources outside India?

Good question on the dated provenance of museum exhibits, and in my view, the date of the blade (if known) would be included in the description. The date of accession of the piece would be factored into the catalogued notes. I am also curious though, whether the wootz ingot (as essentially a 'raw and unworked component) would have had dates, places of manufacture or other data as found on bars of precious metals.

Thank you guys!

18th February 2016, 03:23 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,397	Moderator's Note Mahratt and Ariel: You have a PM from me. Ian.

18th February 2016, 05:43 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	I do not understand, why write in the subject line, if there are no facts. And nothing to say, in addition to known cliches .... Last edited by mahratt; 18th February 2016 at 06:08 PM.

18th February 2016, 01:09 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No sense putting words I never said in my mouth. But if you wish to think so, I am not going to stand in your way. This is a free country , and you are entitled to keeping and voicing your opinion. Full speed ahead:-)

18th February 2016, 05:02 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mahratt, Please, I am trying to end this discussion. You are free to continue and discuss it with whomever you choose, but I said everything I wanted. Do me a favor and do not involve me in this discussion anymore. I will not respond. Thanks.

18th February 2016, 09:05 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Now that's what I'm talking about!!! Thank you Emanuel for such perfectly posed questions and comments! As one who is seriously (and desperately) trying to learn about this seemingly elusive topic on wootz, these are exactly the things I would wish to learn more on. I do know that in India, the actual production of wootz ingots was heavily impeded in the mid 19th c. by British authorities, and as noted, the railways and infrastructure being implemented there was bringing in not only their steel product but production methods in degree. I have always been under the impression that the wootz used in Persia for their blade production had been supplied from India. If that was the case, then where did they acquire material for continued production ? Did they have their own sources outside India? Good question on the dated provenance of museum exhibits, and in my view, the date of the blade (if known) would be included in the description. The date of accession of the piece would be factored into the catalogued notes. I am also curious though, whether the wootz ingot (as essentially a 'raw and unworked component) would have had dates, places of manufacture or other data as found on bars of precious metals. Thank you guys!