silver keris toli-toli ( comments pls)

Jean · 3rd June 2013, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If the setagen was run through the lower loop the scabbard would have been very firmly anchored to the body.

Hello Alan,
What do you mean by setagen?
Any input from our Bugis members regarding the practical use of the passio sumange? It is still unclear to me.

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 3rd June 2013, 02:33 PM

The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose.

It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear.

If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy.

The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear.

Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off.

You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt.

Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads.

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

Sajen · 3rd June 2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men.

Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

Agree!

Jean · 3rd June 2013, 07:49 PM

Thank you Alan.

mykeris · 5th June 2013, 05:22 PM

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

David · 5th June 2013, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mykeris

Dear friends,
since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ...

Battara · 5th June 2013, 11:52 PM

I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.

mykeris · 6th June 2013, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, "experts" say the funniest things sometimes, don't they. I will continue to believe that the first keris sheath that started this thread is a rather contemporary piece. Your mileage may differ...

"Sorry David, even the Foreign Expert Alan Maisey made a wrong judgement in one of those keris threads (hope you remember) "regarding .. whether the sheath really belongs to the blade" and one member of this forum Alam Shah stood by his opinion using 'LOGIC'...if you could remember.

I always agree with Alan, you cannot authenticate an item with 100 percent result without it seeing physically. I learned from his professional statement.TQ

Views differ..and Learning will never end !

3rd June 2013, 02:33 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The sash that you wear around your waist. A sarung is just held at your waist by rolling it over, you kink it a bit on one end maybe, but it still comes loose and if there's not something holding it at your waist it continually comes loose. It can be held by a heavy leather belt, which seems to be what blokes from Madura and some manual labourers in Jawa use---often has pockets in it to hold money or tobacco --- it can be held by a cloth belt --- sabuk--- or it can be held by a setagen, which is particularly so for formal wear. If you wind a setagen right it acts a bit like a corset and supports your back, which is pretty handy for court wear where the abdi dalem spend hours sitting on the floor cross legged. Not easy. The setagen is held in place by a sabuk, the cloth belt, for formal wear, and sometimes for non-formal wear. Anyway, the setagen is wound around the waist and in Jawa the keris is slipped down between specific folds of the setagen at the back, when it becomes a wangkingan, but if one of the folds of the setagen was passed through the toli2 before the winding around the waist was complete, that single passing of the setagen through the toli2 would anchor the wrongko so it could not come free until you took the setagen off. You could maybe do the same or similar with a belt, particularly a cloth belt. Women wear a setagen too, and they often wear it wound very tight from the top of the hips to the bottom of the ribs, this helps them a lot to carry those incredible weights they can carry on their heads. Years ago I saw a woman in Bali carry a board loaded with bricks that were stacked on it by two other women. That board was nearly 3 feet square and the bricks were piled maybe 6 or 8 high. I didn't count them, but my memory tells me there were a lot of them. She carried those bricks from a truck, across rough ground to a building job, maybe 200 yards. In rural Bali and Jawa its mostly women who do the heavy work, not men. Our society could learn a lot from traditional Balinese society.

3rd June 2013, 07:49 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan.

5th June 2013, 05:22 PM	#5
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Dear friends, since we have mixed opinions on this matter , I have referred my earlier posting of this keris to a Malay keris Silver expert in Kelantan, Malaysia. After viewing a closer image of the silver work, he said:' filigree silver work seems to made in the very early 1900s. Tq.

5th June 2013, 11:52 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I will agree that as one who works with metals, filigree is much more difficult than the chasing work.