Tatar saber for discussion

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ham

though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons.

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.

[erlikhan]

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

There are some quality kindjals being made in Dagestan today, but the price is about 100$-200$ for the blade alone, so it makes no sence for them to sell it as fakes.

[ham]

"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market."

Gentlemen,

Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated.

Sincerely,

Ham

[Yannis]

I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.

I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords!

I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos.

If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks!

The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks.

[ariel]

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

[tom hyle]

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

It is fasten with the belt just for the dance. BTW this kindjal is rather new, but some of the dancers I have seen they had old good ones.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all iyents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit sobebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). being cought by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.

I have to attest to this. My grandfather killed a lot of people, but he had to damp all his weapons (including some completely unique ones) into the river .

Additionally many sword types (court swords, anything with coat of arms etc.) were considered to be signs of nobility and the last thing anyone needed is to be a known nobleman .

[erlikhan]

But when Soviet regime collapsed, kindjals and shashkas came to Turkish market like rain. Full silver scabbarded ones were sold for 250-300 dollars. And among them, there were plenty of top quality ones for a bit higher prices,which are nowadays extremely rare , like gold worked ivory scabbards with blades full of gold koftgari. I even saw Sheikh Shamil's own kindjal( not in hand. just picture long after it was sold).Then the prices increased dramatically, but in time. So, when I combine this fact with what you tell, perhaps, most of the weapons were not destroyed or left to rust, but simply were taken and "secured" by local party authorities which were a significant percentage in population, or army officers, police etc. , and when borders opened, they turned these stocks into cash.I am afraid we can count even museums among the market suppliers.
regards

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

[Rivkin]

Ha-ha-ha. Well, here are the statues of the city of Evanston, Illinois, USA:

"No person shall possess, in the City of Evanston, the following:
.....
(C) Any dangerous weapon as defined in Section 9-8-1(A).
....
DANGEROUS WEAPONS: (A) Bludgeon, blackjack, slingshot, sand club, sap, metal knuckles or any knife the blade of which may be opened by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, incendiary devices or any other weapon or instrument of like character.

(B) Dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun, or taser, weighted gloves, bow, arrows or any other weapon or instrument of like character. "

As you can see posession of broken glass (!!!!) is a crime down here .

[Valjhun]

Originally Posted by ariel

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

You can always get a meter blade chainsaw to do some damage on the street muwahahahaa

Stupid laws by ignorant people

Rivkin, That's the nicest thing I saw in a while. I like that music very much! Where i can buy a CD?

[ausjulius]

[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
QUOTE]

the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed,
actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife,
but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun,
swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,,
a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags,
found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...

[ariel]

For personal reasons I went to this topic and just have to add something.
The Crimean Tatar swords are rare because all weapons in Crimea were confiscated and armorer workshops closed when the Russians annexed Crimea in 1783. That was one of the earliest actions of Prince Grigoryj Potemkin, who reigned over the newly acquired territory.
Polish-Lithuanian Tatars constituted just a minority of the Crimean population that moved up north and settled within the borders of the Great Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Over there they gradually were exposed to the European weapons and their old ones largely were lost to posterity.
I managed to get an old (1925) article about Crimean Tamgas by a great Crimean Tatar writer, translator, polyglot, calligrapher, historian and ethnographer Osman Akchokrakly. He managed to collect ~400 tamgas and freely admitted that at least 400 more must have existed. When a son got married, he left his father’s home and established his own , he then usually took his father’s tamga and modified it a bit, and so on. Thus, there are clan tamgas and many sub-clan tamgas.
Akchokrakly was fired from the university where he taught languages and history in 1934, went into hiding with his sister in Baku, but the NKVD ( earlier name for KGB) found him there, accused him of being a spy and executed him. He was only 47.
Crimean Tatars were rounded up in 1944 and their entire population was exiled by Stalin to Central Asia. Only few managed to survive and go back to Crimea in 1967. In the 1990s about 260,000 came back. But they neither got their lands/homes back, nor compensated for the losses. Another tragic page of Soviet history. Now there are only few Russian historians trying to research Crimean history. God bless them!