Tatar saber for discussion

ham · 23rd June 2005, 01:13 AM

Gentlemen,

The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore.
Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market.

Sincerely,

Ham

Rivkin · 23rd June 2005, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons.

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yannis · 23rd June 2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

O-O-Ogh, can you please elaborate on this one ? I've seen quite a lot of khevsur palashes recently, quite similar to each other too...

Yes, I would like to see what Ham sees like copies.

I have been in Georgia recently and the only place I saw Khevsur swords was the museum. I posted pictures in other topic. No in antique shops not in bazars.

In the other hand I have seen 8 Khevsur swords in greek collections (1 is mine), 5-6 more in Ebay and in dealers hands . If any of these is a copy I am blind

Where are the copies????

The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago. This is normal because the origin area is remote and it was close to western people for almost 70 years. Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market. So they sell what they find. Most of them are in good contition just because there is a vivid tradition in Khevsur people.

erlikhan · 23rd June 2005, 08:45 AM

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

Rivkin · 23rd June 2005, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else?
regards

There are some quality kindjals being made in Dagestan today, but the price is about 100$-200$ for the blade alone, so it makes no sence for them to sell it as fakes.

ham · 23rd June 2005, 09:04 AM

"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market."

Gentlemen,

Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated.

Sincerely,

Ham

Yannis · 23rd June 2005, 11:18 AM

I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff.

I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords!

I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos.

If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks!

The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks.

ariel · 23rd June 2005, 01:09 PM

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

tom hyle · 23rd June 2005, 02:42 PM

Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

Rivkin · 23rd June 2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all iyents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit sobebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). being cought by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.

I have to attest to this. My grandfather killed a lot of people, but he had to damp all his weapons (including some completely unique ones) into the river

.

Additionally many sword types (court swords, anything with coat of arms etc.) were considered to be signs of nobility and the last thing anyone needed is to be a known nobleman

.

ariel · 27th June 2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs.
As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords.....

If you think that Soviets were crazy, consider this: there is currently a movement in Great Britain (parliamentary discussions secondary to police requests) to ban the sale and the ownership of long and pointed kitchen knives. Apparently, too high percentage of crimes involved these implements (of course, since the gun ownership is banned, what else would criminals use!).
Thus, from now on, British chefs will have to use either short pointy knives or long and round-tip ones. The criminals, poor souls, will have either to slit their victim throats or, God forbid, break the law and resharpen their long knives.

ausjulius · 17th July 2006, 10:28 PM

[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years.
QUOTE]

the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed,
actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife,
but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun,
swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,,
a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags,
found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...

23rd June 2005, 11:18 AM	#7
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I had a quite different experience in Tbilisi. I looked everywere I could and went to bazar near the river at least 3 times. No khevsur swords! Only bad kindjals and russian army stuff. I went to more Georgian cities and villages. I talked with a lot of people. No khevsur swords! I also saw the weapons that dancing groups use. I hadled some of them. They look like khevsur but they are not! They are simpler in construncion, different materials. Look photos. Sorry for the quality. It was difficult and I am not used of theater photos. If you can find (live or video) Georgian dance with swords, see it. It is amazing. These guys really fight with fierce as they dance. As the blades strike there is light like fireworks! The blades that are used in this dance are real steel but they are full of nicks. Attached Images Last edited by Yannis; 23rd June 2005 at 12:32 PM.

23rd June 2005, 01:09 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. Thus, the Caucasians were understandably very leery of preserving their weapons at home and many were destroyed.Anything of artistic and historian value was confiscated to the museums and likely ended up hanging on the walls of local Party poo-bahs. As to Tatar history, one shoul go to Lithuania, to the Trakai castle: only 20 mi from Vilnius, and an astonishing place of Lithuanian, Tatar and Caraite culture and, yes, weapons. I still remember dozens of old curved swords..... Last edited by ariel; 23rd June 2005 at 11:50 PM.

23rd June 2005, 01:13 AM	#1
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, The swords we refer to as Tatar, Tatarska, Ordynka, etc. are rare because they were superseded by commoner forms within a relatively short period. Polish museums hold the most Tartar items, though Russian and Swedish ones have some interesting examples. Stalin saw to it the Tartars themselves were removed in toto over 50 years ago, you'll only hear Ukranian at Bahcesarayi anymore. Unfortunately the old Orientalist fantasy of shadowy eastern bazaars bulging with the finest antique arms available to adventurous fellows for a pittance is precisely that-- a dream. Having spent many a year researching in Eastern Europe, Egypt and Turkey, I have seen what was once available in good antique weapons dwindle over time. What remains is often poorly restored or composed of associated parts. Same scenario even up in the Caucasus mountains, though lately Georgia abounds in charming (and not such charming) copies, particularly of Khevsur weapons. Bulgaria and Romania are devoid of anything save yatagans worn down to table knives, I'm afraid. Western Europe, particularly England and Germany, seems to have the best Eastern arms on the market. Sincerely, Ham

23rd June 2005, 08:45 AM	#4
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I must ask the same question for kindjals. Do they produce good copies with hand forged blades? I have seen some with real silver scabbards and forged blades , made in 80-90s in Caucassia, but dont know if they still do it. How are the average antique kindjal prices in Georgia today? Cheaper or close to anywhere else? regards

23rd June 2005, 09:04 AM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	"The khevsur swords were uknown few years ago.... Since 1991 poverty, wars etc. Just recently Georgian dealers found that these swords have value in Western market." Gentlemen, Yannis' observations are entirely accurate, and explain perfectly why numerous copies of Khevsur weapons are appearing on the market in Tbilisi. The examples I saw there had old blades, some straight, some curved-- no scarcity of them, apparently. When asked, the local collectors I met generally reponded that they were made in the 1950s during the Stalin era for dance troupes and other ceremonies intended to promote Georgian culture. Dealers, on the other hand, said there were a few characters in town who build hilts and scabbards around old blades and sell them along a particular prospect near the river and at the flea market-- I visited both these spots and did see several in addition to some old but extremely worn kindjals and a few Soviet bayonets. On the other hand, I saw no Khevsur weapons in private collections there, which in itself is telling. Incidentally bravo Yannis for the images of the arms displays at the History Museum. I didn't dare bring a camera in there for fear of having it confiscated. Sincerely, Ham

23rd June 2005, 02:42 PM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Interesting mode of wear for that kinzhal.

17th July 2006, 10:28 PM	#12
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 454	[QUOTE=ariel]During the Soviet regime, ownership of weapons was so strongly regulated that it was for all intents and purposes forbidden. Even buying a hunting knife in a specialized store required police check and permission (presumably, one could not slit somebody else's throat with a kitchen knife bought freely). Being caught by the police with a "finka" (a small knife in a style of Finnish puukko) landed one in jail for a couple of years. QUOTE] the laws havent changed , just the enforcemant has relaxed, actualy there is different classes of knive ,, basicly a knife like a pukko can , and could be purchased by anyone,, as with a cooking knife, but anything , like a locking pocket knife, of a military knife or a large hunting knife needed a paper form the mvd, or it needed one to own a gun, swords and other such items were illeagle ,, unless a special permit was granted , ,, and this didnt happen often,, ,, a "fiver" was a prison knife, , knives not being allowed to imates in the siberian gulags, found possessing one gave the owner an extra 5 years on his sentence...