Help identify this piece

[Oiluj13]

Greetings, forum masters and ethnographic scholars,I have an unusual acquisition on my workbench that defies standard textbook categorization. Rather than sharing my own research or chronological theories up front, I want to present this artifact completely blindly to the community. I am highly eager to get your uninfluenced, raw opinions on its geographic origin, timeline, and functional purpose.I have attached four highly detailed macro views from my workshop. Please dissect the following physical anomalies:1. The Spine & Face TopographyThe blade profile exhibits a broad-shouldered, single-edged trajectory that terminates in an acute, tapering point. However, looking down the spine axis, the steel maintains a massive, uniform, completely flat "I-Beam" architecture with zero tapering for the first half of its length. This blocky spine drops abruptly into an aggressive, one-sided single-bevel chisel grind. Under magnification, the surface reveals a clear horizontal micro-laminated, heterogeneous slag-bearing matrix crossed over by a dense, cross-hatched network of manual whetstone maintenance lines. Deep, stable historic pitting runs along the bevel boundary line.2. The Asymmetric Through-Bolt HiltThe mounting mechanism completely moves away from traditional blind-tang peening or organic resin seating. The hilt is engineered as a two-piece slab-grip scale set clamped over a wide, flat, full-profile tang. The fastening layout is distinctly asymmetric: one face utilizes two factory-machined, dome-headed slotted machine screws countersunk into the wood grain. The opposite face anchors into hand-cut, rectangular sheet-metal wash plates and sleeve-nuts/peened targets.3. The Hardened Leather SheathThe sheath is constructed entirely from a thick, hardened leather hide that has naturally crazed, water-shrunk, and oil-saturated over generations. The outer seam is held together by a tight, sequential row of heavy-duty copper/brass tubular eyelet rivets driven directly through the overlapping leather lips. There is no wood or rattan presence.The Challenge Questions:Based purely on the material mix and geometry, what is the precise geographic origin of this blade core?How do you reconcile the traditional asymmetric single-bevel chisel grind with a full-tang, slab-grip through-bolt configuration?Does the combination of the tubular scabbard eyelets and the factory slot-head machine bolts point to a specific historical conflict theater or supply line modification?I look forward to reading your blind diagnostic breakdowns and seeing where the metallurgy leads us!

[werecow]

I can't comment on the metallurgy as I don't have the required knowledge base, but if it helps at all a reverse google image search came up with knives with a similar blade profile and canted grip and they were all listed on an Argentinian site that seems to be a local ebay variant (though it requires me to log in when attempting to click through, so I don't have more information than that).

[Tim Simmons]

I like the backwoods or frontier look of this knife. There is an appealing rugged and functional quality to it. Interesting from your photos, having a chisel edge? Might help the identification.

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't know where this might have been made, but I do know that chisel grind blades have quite specific uses, as do blades that are set below the line of the hilt.

This is a fairly robust sort of knife, in a way it echoes the oldtime Saami knives that were used to take bark from trees. But this is not a Saami knife.

Chisel grind blades were (are?) popular in Siberia, this type of sheath construction is popular in Siberia, the hilt is rivetted & looks like cow horn.

Pure guess:- Siberia.

[wildwolberine]

Hi Oiluj13,

Greetings from San Antonio!

Could this have been made from an old pair of sheep shears?

[Tim Simmons]

Really good suggestion. To me the blade looks a touch to heavy?

[Oiluj13]

Greetings from floresville Go Spurs Go! thanks for your suggestions i don’t think it was made from shears as it is extremely thick. I purchased this blade in washington state around federal way i believe it might have been repurposed from an industrial planer and might have been used as a cushion frontiers man knife i was hoping someone here might know more about this piece as i can not find anything else quite like it.

[RobT]

Hi All,

I may as well jump in. So, we have a chisel grind, a blade canted off axis from the hilt and a relatively short hilt. Aside from the triangular blade, I see nothing really inconsistent with the Philippines. I have an Apalit knife with scales riveted to a full tang. I also have a barong shaped blade that has a hilt with a cross pin made of a hex nut counter sunk into the hilt and screwed into a screw or bolt (the head is cut off flush with the hilt so I can’t tell which).
Although this knife appears to be a formidable weapon, can we rule out that it wasn’t originally intended to be a butcher knife/boning knife/cleaver? My kutsilyo de busong looks pretty wicked but it is a butcher knife (as are my two Sabatier which would also be rather lethal). Actually, the blade profiles of the knife in question and that of a kutsilyo de busong are roughly similar. The differences being that edge of the kutsilyo is curved not straight (also the kutsilyo blade isn’t canted and is symmetrically ground). Could you post the blade dimensions? My kutsilyo is 9” long and 2.625” at the base (22.86 & 6.66 cm)
The the butcher knife supposition is bolstered by the sheath, which has no means of carry but would be entirely adequate for safe storage of the blade.

Sincerely,
RobT

PS: Whatever it is or wherever it is from, it is a really good looking piece. I’d like to have one.

[Oiluj13]

Hi here are a few mor pics the sheath does have belt looks and i took pictures with ruler for size comparison.

[RobT]

Oiluj13,

Thanks for supplying the other side of the sheath and the length. From what I can see, the length of the blade, if measured in a straight line from the heel of the blade where the tang begins, to the tip comes in at about 11.5”. My big Sabatier is only 11.25" long. With a half inch spine and tang, a knife as long as yours could be used for fighting, camping or butchery without much fear of failure. Chisel grinds have lately become more popular in the US but I don’t think that they are too common on US hunting knives. Your idea about a custom made piece is a good one but I would say it looks more homemade than custom made. Given the chisel grind and the blade/hilt cant, I still think that a Philippine origin is a good bet. What I find odd is the belt loop. Everything about this piece is super sturdy (including the riveted, thick leather sheath). Why is the belt loop so wimpy? The band of leather is narrow and it looks like it couldn’t take more than an 1.125” wide belt.

Sincerely,
RobT

[A. G. Maisey]

Oiluj, this is a chisel grind blade, the other side of the blade might be dead flat, or it might demonstrate some degree of concavity.

Could you please advise in respect of the geometry of the side of the blade that we have not yet seen.

Thank you.

[Tim Simmons]

The knife does resemble a blade from sheep shears but is it too heavy? It also seems to be the wrong shape for metal cutting shears being too light weight, or industrial scissors. Is it an odd shape blade for garden shears? I am inclined to see it made as a knife and the position of the grip might suggest east Asian? as has been noted. Does not look like a chopper as in butchers tool, could slice with it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Chisel grind knives are designed to perform specific functions and to be used in specific ways by specific people.

With this in mind I feel that perhaps one question that must be asked is whether this knife was made as a weapon or a tool.

Two other questions are related to the hilt:- in what places and in what societies is the full tang blade with a riveted slab hilt common, & where is a hilt that uses horn slabs common?

Then there is the matter of the sheath:- in what type of society & in what places is a sheath such as the one for this knife, constructed as this sheath has been constructed?

I agree that this knife could be used as a weapon, just as almost anything can be used as a weapon, but was it made to be used as a weapon?

If supportable answers can be framed for these questions it might be possible to present a hypothetical point of origin for this knife.

[colin henshaw]

Interesting piece, I like the somewhat primitive, blacksmith-made look. Given the chisel edge, heavy blade and thick spine, it was probably intended as a specialist tool rather than a weapon. For downward chopping cuts through thick material that were required to produce a vertical edge on one side.

The best I can think of is a knife for thatching. Looking over the internet here are some examples of thatching knives.

[Oiluj13]

Hi A.G Maisey,
This piece has wood handles not horn although it does look like horn in the picture. I believe this might be an improvised knife or a theater knife.The theory that this knife is a authentic WWII Pacific Theatre bring-back piece is supported by a combination of four specific forensic details found on the object:1. The Mismatched "Wartime Repair" HardwareThe Detail: The handle uses one original, high-grade brass American saw screw at the top, but a crude, hand-hammered, mismatched iron pin at the bottom.The Support: If this were a commercial civilian knife or a professional blacksmith's work, the hardware would match. The mismatch proves a story of resourcefulness—a builder adapting a salvaged handle to a new blade using whatever random scrap metal pins they could find in a field workshop.2. The Heavy-Duty Copper Rivets & BurrsThe Detail: The leather scabbard is held together by large, industrial-grade copper dome rivets secured with flat copper washers (burrs).The Support: This specific hardware was not used on standard commercial civilian knife sheaths. However, it was stocked in massive quantities by US military motor pools, SeaBee construction battalions, and aviation engineers for repairing heavy machine belts, canvas tarps, and truck assemblies. It shows the builder had access to rugged U.S. military workshop supplies.3. The Non-Military "Simple Loop" ScabbardThe Detail: The back of the sheath features a simple, locally stitched leather belt loop instead of a standard-issue US military wire M1910 canvas belt hook.The Support: This rules out a factory-made piece of US military gear. It confirms the scabbard was handmade by a local artisan (such as a Filipino leatherworker) catering directly to American soldiers who wanted a custom sheath that could fit onto a standard civilian leather waist belt.4. Aggressive "On-the-Fly" Hand GougingThe Detail: The inside of the handle grip shows rough chisel marks, raw file scrapes, and blackened wood friction burns where a 1mm saw slot was brutally widened to take a 6.5mm thick metal blade.The Support: This indicates that the knife was not designed from scratch by a master craftsman. It is a highly improvised "marriage" of two completely different objects, executed using basic hand tools under field or trench conditions

[Bob A]

Interesting knife, certainly. The elephant in the room is whether it is in fact suitable as a weapon? The military provenance described is compelling, but the thing looks extremely awkward in hand.

Do you find this to be the case? If form defines function, what function would it most easily perform?

[Tim Simmons]

It could well be African. A lot of ww1 African stuff can be quite unusual.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Oiluj, for clarifying the handle slab material. The further clarification provided by your additional photos is also useful.

The handle has certainly been damaged, it was originally a hidden tang hilt, and it has been damaged.
How & where it was damaged can only be a matter of guesswork. The brass screw is probably original, & the steel screw is a replacement. This repair work could have been done anywhere at any time where there was not ready access to matching materials, nor need for there to be matching materials. It is the sort of thing that we all do on Sunday afternoon, when we're 20 miles from town, the hardware shops are closed and we want to finish the job we're working on. This sort of repair work does not need to be tied to any wartime scenario, nor to any other specific set of circumstances.

I don't know where the idea of "military" came from, but yes, I do agree that this sort of blade cover is not able to be attached to any military association. Similarly, the blade does not bear the indicators of factory production, whilst it does bear the indicators of a smith's work. However, it is extremely unlikely that this blade is the product of any East Asian or South East Asian smith. Blades from these parts of the world are overwhelmingly fixed to the hilt with adhesive and usually have a stick tang.

In my opinion the handle is original to the blade, & that blade was designed to perform a specific function --- what that function might have been is something we're still working on.
The handle has been damaged, & this damage has revealed the rough finish to the underside of the tang, which would have been hidden, prior to the damage that has occurred to the hidden tang handle. When we make a knife that will have the tang hidden --- either by use of enveloping slabs, or as a stick tang, we do not remove tool marks & etc from that tang, as the roughened surface assists with stability of the handle.

All of this discussion I find to be interesting, it is most certainly outside my own particular interests in edged weapons, but I do have a background in bladesmithing & custom knife work, & I do have a fondness for chisel grind blades, this is what has caught my interest with this knife under discussion.


Colin Henshaw

I've just done a bit of searching on thatcher's knives, & I tend to agree that "thatcher's knife" might be a pretty fair sort of guess.
I know nothing about thatching, but I have lived in houses with thatched roofs, & have seen them being repaired --- in Jawa & Bali there are still houses in out of the way places that do have thatched roofs, in fact, there is a hotel in Bali where the accommodation is Balinese style cottages with thatched roofs.

I do agree that the blade of this knife was designed as a tool, rather than as a weapon --- but of course, anything can be a weapon, given the need.

Bob A

Knives with a chisel grind need to be used in only one hand or the other, a knife made to be used in the right hand cannot be used effectively in the left hand. Additionally, the blade geometry is designed to perform a limited number of functions, or perhaps only a single function.

Overall knife design is also dictated by intended use.

I've spent a great deal of time in Jawa & Bali, & in those places chisel grind knives are very much favoured, with each variation of the knife having a different function. We can see something similar with Japanese kitchen knives, each knife that has a chisel grind has been designed to carry out one function exceedingly well.

What function could it perform?
It is a heavy blade with a chisel grind & a trailing hilt.
Such a design would work well to remove thin slices of relatively hard material, it could be a carpenter's knife for squaring timber, it could function in a similar way to a draw knife, but with a push or slice action rather than a drawing action, it could be used to strip bark, either green or dry, it would work very well to ringbark trees. These are things that readily come to mind, but I guess if we really put our minds to it we could hypothesise any number of uses it could be put to --- as I've said, I like the thatcher's knife idea, I've seen thatching being done, & I reckon it could be pretty useful in that work.