rare dhapur Singo Sineba

[satsujinken]

well, the keris is not mine

it was offered to me but went above my budget, so I asked permission to the owner to post pictures here here as educational and discussion tool

I personally never seen this dhapur in real life keris form ...
considering the condition, the blade is somewhat old

opinions are welcome

enjoy !!

Donny

[Sajen]

Hi Donny,

more as difficult to say something by the pictures regarding if it's an old or recent blade. What I can say that it isn't a masterwork of art, I see irregularities but maybe I can be cheated by my eyes. This would speak against a recent blade. Any change to see this blade fresh stained? Or without oil?

Regards,
Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Miraculous!

The greneng totally eroded : the singo barong still retaining a perfect profile, and most importantly, his manhood.

A truly wonderful keris --- in the literal meaning of the word.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A truly wonderful keris --- in the literal meaning of the word.

Well yes, it did make me wonder...

[Rick]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Miraculous! the singo barong still retaining a perfect profile, and most importantly, his manhood.

Viagra??

[satsujinken]

for those who did not know, singo represent masculinity. It was believed that this kind of Keris will boost your manhood ... therefore the correct miniature lion should have an erect penis

Donny

[satsujinken]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Donny,

more as difficult to say something by the pictures regarding if it's an old or recent blade. What I can say that it isn't a masterwork of art, I see irregularities but maybe I can be cheated by my eyes. This would speak against a recent blade. Any change to see this blade fresh stained? Or without oil?

Regards,
Detlef

sadly those are the only pictures I got from the seller, and I posted here with his permission

but as always, I can always try to ask him for more detailed pictures


Donny

[A. G. Maisey]

Actually, the singo is associated with the K'satriya caste.

Certainly, Jawa/Bali symbolism is multi symbolism, but sometimes we do come across misunderstandings and distortions.

Not surprising really.

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Could it be that this blade is of very recent manufacture and was artificially aged?!

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

Could it be that this blade is of very recent manufacture and was artificially aged?!

Hello Marius,

Artificially aged for what? In my opinion the value of such a corroded blade is lower than a smooth blade with good visible pamor.

One simple way for artificially aging is to bury the blade in the ground and wait some weeks or months. But normally artifical aged blades are easy to recognisze.

The very poorly made example in the picture is obviously artificially aged and outsourced in my basement.

And in the first moment I was thinking, that the penis is an umbilical cord, which could be also pretty mystic.


Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hello Marius,

Artificially aged for what?

Roland

Hello Roland,

Aged to be sold as a very rare antique blade...
... or aged to mask poor workmanship... I guess...

[David]

Originally Posted by satsujinken

for those who did not know, singo represent masculinity. It was believed that this kind of Keris will boost your manhood ... therefore the correct miniature lion should have an erect penis

Donny, Alan wasn't questioning the presence of the singo's "manhood", but rather the un-eroded condition of it and other aspects of a blade where the greneng is so obviously well worn. The unevenness of the wear on this blade leads us to suspect that it has been artificially aged.
Roland asks "Artificially aged for what?"
In my experience current era blades receive artificial aging treatment for at least two reasons. Firstly AFAIK it is the current fashion in Jawa for even acknowledged new blades to receive an aging treatment. People seem to like the look. Personal i agree with you that when i have an acknowledged current era blade i would rather have one that is not eroded in any way, but i am a collector from outside the culture and i can't really argue with how the people who are the legitimate owners of keris culture choose to present and maintain their keris.
Secondly a keris can be aged to deceive. You say "the value of such a corroded blade is lower than a smooth blade with good visible pamor", but that is only true if we are comparing keris that we accept as being equal in actual age. The rarity of certain dhapurs in truly antique blades can overcome condition in terms of value. I do not believe i have ever seen this particular dhapur in a confirmed antique blade so if we accept this one as being an actual antique the value is risen above a current era example that might be in perfect and un-eroded condition, no?

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by David

Roland asks "Artificially aged for what?"

David,

your words makes sense to me.
Master Maiseys comment allows interpretations in different directions.

I believe, collectors as you, Alan or Detlef easily see the inconsistency compared to old blades. For a beginner like me the blade is too corroded.

I think your statement about the local preferences is very conclusive.


Roland

[Rick]

I can testify to the artificial ageing of new blades.
It took my contact a few years to find me a new keris buda that hadn't been artificially aged.
That is how prevalent this artificial ageing is...

[Sajen]

I am nearly sure that we see here a reworked old blade, the singa is added newly, that's the reason that the greneng is worn like this but the contours of the singa are so sharp and the penis still so large. Also the typical Sineba bulge seems not correct to my eyes, the form is not typical IMVHO. But frankly said I've handled only very few Sineba blades so it's just my impression.

Regards,
Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I am nearly sure that we see here a reworked old blade, the singa is added newly, that's the reason that the greneng is worn like this but the contours of the singa are so sharp and the penis still so large. Also the typical Sineba bulge seems not correct to my eyes, the form is not typical IMVHO. But frankly said I've handled only very few Sineba blades so it's just my impression.

Detlef, this explanation is a very possible one indeed and perhaps more likely than a new blade that has been aged, given what we can see in these photographs. But from the quality of the images to the massive amount of oil on the blade it is not very easy to tell one way or another if this is an altered old blade, but it is certainly one way that this creation may have come into being.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

But from the quality of the images to the massive amount of oil on the blade it is not very easy to tell one way or another if this is an altered old blade, but it is certainly one way that this creation may have come into being.

Hi David,

that's the reason why I have asked in my first post to this thread for an unoiled and maybe fresh stained blade.

Regards,
Detlef

[drdavid]

It is hard to determine much from the photos but on Donny's 3rd image (side on, greneng to the left) I wonder whether I might be seeing a weld line from above the Singo's head to a point just in front of the pesi
DrD

[A. G. Maisey]

What is happening with Fido's foot?

Perhaps there is just the smallest possibility that this entire object has been built around a genuinely old gonjo?

Look at the grain in the metal, and the surface texture : compare the gonjo with the wilah.

It is always very difficult to appraise any keris from a photo, and where an educated seller has an intention to deceive, it is almost always impossible to know what one is looking at in an online image.

But we can guess.

[Jean]

Well, Donny, you were lucky not to be able to pay enough for this "treasure"
Very educative thread, thanks to Alan especially!

[satsujinken]

Wow, I have to admit that it almost fooled me

but yea, I got another singo barong, with minuscule penis, worn out due to repeated cleaning

and this one got huge intact manhood ...

and also considering Alan's opinion on how the blade and the gonjo are different, I can only say SH*T !!

how lucky I am to know you all guys

many thanks


Donny