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Old 21st March 2010, 01:00 AM   #1
VANDOO
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Smile JAPANESE WAR FANS

THESE ATTRACTED MY ATTENTION RECENTLY AND I DON'T RECALL THEM ON THE FORUM SO WILL DO A POST.
WITH A LITTLE RESEARCH I FOUND THERE WERE FOUR TYPES
1. GUNSEN " FOLDING FANS USED BY THE AVERAGE WARRIOR TO COOL THEMSELVES. THEY WERE MADE OF BRONZE, BRASS OR A SIMULAR METAL FOR THE INNER SPOKES AND OFTEN USED IRON FOR THE TWO OUTER SPOKES. THEY WERE LIGHT WEIGHT BUT STRONG. WARRIORS WOULD HANG THEIR FANS IN A VARIETY OF PLACES, MOST TYPICALLY FROM THE BELT OR THE BREASTPLATE THOUGH THE LATTER OFTEN IMPEDED THE USE OF A SWORD OR BOW."

2. SAIHAI IT LOOKS MORE LIKE A FLY WHISP THAN A FAN. "THEY WERE TASSELED SIGNALLING FANS WHICH WOULD BE USED BY A COMANDER TO SIGNAL TROOP MOVEMENTS.

3. TESSEN IT RESEMBLED FAN #1 BUT WAS PERHAPS MORE STURDY AND SOMETIMES HAD SHARPENED EDGES FOR SLASHING. SOME HAVE 12 METAL RIBS OTHERS HAVE LESS THE FIGHTING STYLE USING THEM IS CALLED TESSENJUTSU
"TESSEN WERE FOLDING FANS WITH OUTER SPOKES MADE OF IRON WHICH WERE DESIGNED TO LOOK LIKE NORMAL, HARMLESS FOLDING FANS OR SOLID CLUBS SHAPED TO LOOK LIKE A CLOSED FAN. SAMURAI COULD TAKE THESE TO PLACES WHERE SWORDS OR OTHER OVERT WEAPONS WERE NOT ALLOWED. SOME SWORDMANSHIP SCHOOLS INCLUDED TRAINING IN THE USE OF THE TESSEN AS A WEAPON. THE TESSEN WAS ALSO USED FOR FENDING OFF ARROWS AND DARTS AND AS A THROWING WEAPON. IT WAS ALSO USED AS A SWIMMING AID." THE TESSEN SOMETIMES HAD SHARPENED EDGES USED FOR SLASHING. MANY TESSEN HAD IRON SPOKES THRUOUT.

4. UCHIWA "WERE LARGE IRON FANS, SOMETIMES BUILT ON A WOODEN CORE, THEY WERE CARRIED BY HIGH RANKING OFFICERS. THEY WERE USED TO WARD OFF ARROWS, AS A SUNSHADE AND TO SIGNAL TROOPS."

I WILL INCLUDE PICTURES OF THE 4 TYPES ( I DID NOT INCLUDE A PICTURE OF A GUNSEN FAN AS IT LOOKS MUCH THE SAME AS THE TESSEN)
FIRST PIC. SAIHAI, AUTHENTIC TASSELED FORM.
PICS 2,3 &4 TESSEN,
PIC. 5 AUTHENTIC UCHIWA, GOLD WITH BLACK SYMBOL.
PIC 6 AUTHENTIC SOLID IRON TESSEN, WITH CARD IN JAPANESE
PIC. 7 , SILVER AND BLACK UCHIWA (REPLICA)
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Last edited by VANDOO : 21st March 2010 at 01:19 AM.
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Old 21st March 2010, 06:41 PM   #2
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FOR THOSE WISHING TO SEE SOME FAN TECKNIQUES THERE ARE SEVERAL VIDEOS YOU CAN GOOGLE (TESSENJUTSU) AND SELECT AND VIEW. I WOULD RECOMEND CHOSON NINJA, VIDEO 341 BASIC IRON FAN.
AND OTHERS FROM THE SAME SOURCE. I WOULD ATTACH A LINK BUT DON'T KNOW HOW, SO IF SOMEONE MORE COMPUTER SAVY WANTS TO ATTACH A VIDEO OR PICTURES FEEL FREE.
WAR FANS WERE ALSO USED IN OTHER COUNTRIES SUCH AS KOREA AND CHINA, I DID NOT FIND A SURE REFRENCE FOR WHERE THEY ORIGINATED.
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Old 6th May 2010, 05:45 AM   #3
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here is a picture of my edo period tessen that I purchased in Japan around 5 or 6 years ago



It is heavy iron with gold leaf urushi lacquered paper fan. Sparrows form the pattern and are done in red ink.
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Old 6th May 2010, 01:18 PM   #4
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Very interesting thread.
Barry, all you have to do to create a link it to copy the url of the website (the actual address) and paste it to this page.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8rgix2ZZ2c
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Old 6th May 2010, 01:48 PM   #5
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Choson Ninjutsu is seen as fake in Japanese Budo circles. From what I understand the style never existed and certainly is not practised in Japan - So I would take that clip with a grain of salt.

Here is a demo showing real budo - it features Jutte with Tessen as practised in Shindo Muso Ryu( Ikkaku Ryu) a style some 400 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu38...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeaU91MtV8

edit - I have added a different clip to begin with which shows the tessen better, same ryuha (school/style)

Last edited by Jason Anstey : 6th May 2010 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 7th May 2010, 05:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Anstey
Choson Ninjutsu is seen as fake in Japanese Budo circles. From what I understand the style never existed and certainly is not practised in Japan - So I would take that clip with a grain of salt.

Here is a demo showing real budo - it features Jutte with Tessen as practised in Shindo Muso Ryu( Ikkaku Ryu) a style some 400 years old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu38...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTeaU91MtV8

edit - I have added a different clip to begin with which shows the tessen better, same ryuha (school/style)

Well Jason, that well may be, but i must say that the demonstrations in the videos you posted look almost comically ineffectual while the methods in the Choson video look at least practical and well executed. Says little about the historical reality of course, but i think i'd rather be holding the grain of salt in this respect.
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Old 7th May 2010, 06:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Well Jason, that well may be, but i must say that the demonstrations in the videos you posted look almost comically ineffectual while the methods in the Choson video look at least practical and well executed. Says little about the historical reality of course, but i think i'd rather be holding the grain of salt in this respect.



Well David - with respect I can only assume you don't study Japanese martial arts - but you feel you can say a 400 year old school with unbroken linage is ineffectual then you must know more than many do?

Chosun is a modern invented school - maybe it is effective I don't know, but when you invent a martial art based on a now defunct weapon and call if effective then you are missing the point of budo

I recommend doing a search on Chosun to find out more - maybe try ebudo or bullshido for starts.

Me, well, yes I am a student of legitimate budo and have trained in Japan on numerous occasions - maybe I am bias. I had hoped to show you a demonstration with undisputed experts in the field to show true tessen jutsu and I am sorry that you didn't see or appreciate this. I get annoyed at seeing rubbish touted as legitimate. What I will say with certainty is that the clips I have shown are correct - you may not understand it like you do the Chosun clip but I think you should make critical judgement on something you have experience with.

I thought the the OP thread is a great one with some really good info and pics. I know the Chosun clip is newly invented rubbish - so I only wanted for you to see real history - isn't this what this site is about - real history in regards to weapons?
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:06 AM   #8
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Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.
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Old 7th May 2010, 11:28 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Hello Jason,

To be frank,I have no knowledge on martial arts except for 10 lessons in Kendo I once followed.
I have no doubt that the video's you show us are ancient techniques.

But personally I also feel it hard to imagine that a serious stroke with a katana can be effectively stopped by a metal rod of approx 30 cms, without hand guard.
That is probably also David's point of view on this.

Also the technique where the katana is fixed by the fan and the tanto looks rather scary to me.
The katana is only 40 or 50 cms away from the defenders private parts.
If the attacker would step foreward I can imagine that he would cause some serious damage while still keeping out of reach of the fan and tanto

But then again, I can easily be wrong as I do like collecting edged weapons, but normally stay very very far from using them.


No problems. The thing to understand from the clips posted is that these are "embu" ie demonstrations of the art. THey are showing kata. THe kata consists of various principles and techniques. THe vids are not demonstration 'how to do this if someone does this' Normally demonstrations of this nature are for dojo only.

I understand that this site(which I am a big fan of for its knowledge and absence of wannabe ninjas) is for ethnographic weapon discussions. If I posted a picture of a weapon like the attached image and said this was based on reality - I would get smashed down - and rightly so.

Now, I have seen this thread - and I thank the OP for this, that I have a great deal of interest in both martial and collecting and I merely sought to show examples of accepted good form.

Hiroi Sensei who David mentioned as "comical" is actually one of the most respected martial artist in all of Japan regardless of school, he was a legend. So I though people would appreciate seeing something different without the Youtube martial arts $$ signs.

What I would like is for people to watch the embu again and see the angles shown in the slo-mo of the jutte and tessen in regards to the sword - one blocks and the other deflects the follow through of blade so the blocking hand is not cut off.

THese weapons were used primarily by the edo period police who did not wear swords (generalisation for the purpose of a short discussion)

Anyway it is a discussion that could go on way too long - and I apologise if I have ruffled feathers - my intention was to add to the OP not to take away the value of Vandoos post.
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Old 7th May 2010, 07:00 PM   #10
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In some ways, this reminds me of Filipino escrima, especially the style from the Visayas that uses a smaller still (whose name I forget now - serrada?).
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Old 7th May 2010, 07:42 PM   #11
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One addition that may help:

We're dealing with a couple of different time periods here.

The Tokugawa shogunate caused substantial changes in Japanese martial culture, and the techniques shown here are useful for countering "peacetime" samurai. This is what most classical budo is: these are traditions that developed under the Tokugawa. The classical bujutsu that preceded the Tokugawa is preserved (AFAIK) mostly by the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

One good way of seeing the change brought by the Tokugawa is the mitsu-dogu. These are three weapons used in concert to restrain swordsmen. The classical trio were three polearms used in concert: the satsumata, the sodegarami, and the tsukubo (Image). Under the Tokugawa, these became symbolic, and the mitsu-dogu used by Tokugawa police were the jutte, the manriki-gusari weighted chain, and the rokushakubo, or six foot staff, and they were employed independently, rather than in concert. This may say more about the relative quality of the swordsmen, rather than that the smaller weapons were better than the polearms.

Systematic uses of war fans documentably date back to the sixteenth century (Shinkage Ryu), and they're certainly older as weapons. Still, the forms have evolved over the times.

(source: Draeger's Classical Bujutsu).
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Old 8th May 2010, 04:27 AM   #12
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ALL THE VIDEOS DO SHOW LEGITIMATE TECKNIQUES. THE ONE I MENTIONED SHOWS SEVERAL BASIC TECKNIQUES AND WHICH TARGETS TO STRIKE AND IN SOME CASES EXPLAINS THE DAMMAGE DONE.
THE OTHER ONE SHOWS A BASIC CROSS BLOCKING TECKNIQUE USING THE FAN AS WELL AS THE JUTTE. THE CROSS BLOCK IS A STRONG ONE AS WOULD BE NEEDED TO STOP A SWORD BLOW AND IS DESIGNED TO CATCH AND ABSORB THE FORCE OF THE SWORD STRIKE. THIS BLOCK CAN USE THE ARMS TO EFFECTIVELY BLOCK AGAINST A CLUB OR STICK WITHOUT GETTING AN ARM BROKEN. BUT THE BLOCK WITH THE ARMS WILL NOT WORK AGAINST A SWORD UNLESS SOME SORT OF ARMOR IS PRESENT. THE CROSS BLOCK WITH THE ARMS ABSORBS AND STOPS THE FORCE AND ALLOWS ONE TO THEN GET A CHANCE TO TAKE THE STICK AWAY IF DONE FAST AND PROPERLY. SEVERAL VARIATIONS ON THE BLOCKING TECKNIQUE ARE WELL DEMONSTRATED IN THE VIDEO. THE USE OF THE FAN AND JUTTE IS MUCH SAFER THAN JUST TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE SWORD WITH JUST ONE JUTTE OR FAN.
NORMALY THE FAN IS ONLY GOOD TO DEFLECT OR TO STRIKE SOFT TARGETS OR PRESSURE POINTS AS SHOWN IN THE TESSENNINJA VIDEO. TWO SAI OR JUTTE WOULD BE BETTER FOR DEALING WITH A SWORD THAN THE WAR FANS. THE FAN WAS NOT A PRIMARY WEAPON JUST SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DESIGNED TO SERVE AS ONE WHILE LOOKING LIKE A HARMLESS FAN. I FEEL THINGS CAN BE LEARNED FROM ANY SCHOOL OF MARTIAL ART REGADLESS OF ITS LINAGE OR THE NAME IT CHOSES TO USE. IF THE TECKNIQUE IS WELL EXECUTED AND NOT DONE POORLY AND IS EXPLAINED AND DONE IN SUCH A WAY AS IT CAN BE SEEN AND UNDERSTOOD SOMETHING CAN BE LEARNED.
THE WAR FANS WERE SPECIALIZED ITEMS THAT MOSTLY SERVED PURPOSES OTHER THAN USE AS WEAPONS BUT IN A PINCH DID SAVE A FEW WARRIORS. ONE GENERAL WAS SAID TO HAVE FOUGHT OFF AN ENEMY GENERAL WHO BROKE THRU THE LINES AND RODE INTO HIS TENT TAKEING HIM BY SURPRIZE. TAKEING ON A FULLY ARMED SAMAURAI ON HORSE BACK IN A TENT WITH A FAN (NOW THATS A VIDEO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE)
NO DOUBT THERE WERE MASTERS WHO PRACTICED FAN TECKNIQUES AND BECAME VERY SKILLED IN THEIR USE AS A WEAPON BUT MOST WARRIORS WOULD PROBABLY HAVE ONLY KNOWN VERY BASIC TECKNIQUE.

THERE IS A POST ON THE POLE ARMS USED TO CATCH SAMAURAI SOMEWHERE ON THE FORUM FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEARCH IT OUT.
THE POST WAS (JAPANESE SLEEVE ENTANGLERS) BY VANDOO IN JANUARY 2008

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Old 8th May 2010, 03:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Anstey
Well David - with respect I can only assume you don't study Japanese martial arts - but you feel you can say a 400 year old school with unbroken linage is ineffectual then you must know more than many do?

Chosun is a modern invented school - maybe it is effective I don't know, but when you invent a martial art based on a now defunct weapon and call if effective then you are missing the point of budo

I recommend doing a search on Chosun to find out more - maybe try ebudo or bullshido for starts.

Me, well, yes I am a student of legitimate budo and have trained in Japan on numerous occasions - maybe I am bias. I had hoped to show you a demonstration with undisputed experts in the field to show true tessen jutsu and I am sorry that you didn't see or appreciate this. I get annoyed at seeing rubbish touted as legitimate. What I will say with certainty is that the clips I have shown are correct - you may not understand it like you do the Chosun clip but I think you should make critical judgement on something you have experience with.

I thought the the OP thread is a great one with some really good info and pics. I know the Chosun clip is newly invented rubbish - so I only wanted for you to see real history - isn't this what this site is about - real history in regards to weapons?


Jason, i suppose i understand your defensive stance, but if you really read what i stated you would have noticed that i clearly made the remark that it "Says little about the historical reality of course..."
Also i did not refer to Hiroi Sensei as "comical", i said the the demonstration appeared "comical ineffectual", and i will stick by that comment as i think it does. I am afraid that as a demo video it was shot far too far away to show the viewer any nuances of the moves, but even so i still doubt that the fan holder here would stand much of a chance against an experienced swordsman with these moves.
I do understand and appreciate your pointing out that the first group of images are from a newly developed art. This is important to note in an ethnographic discussion, but again bares no relevance on the effectiveness of the art itself. In a real fight the age of your "tradition" is reletively unimportant.
You certainly haven't ruffled my feathers Jason. I hope i haven't ruffled yours.
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