Long Pedang from Bali (or Lombok?)

Henk · 21st March 2020, 04:34 PM

Alan,

Thank you for the ki pedang nagaraja. I do recognize an item in my collection wich couldn't be identified. Now i know what it is.

Lee · 21st March 2020, 05:56 PM

Alan,
Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type?

Additional images and description

I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready).

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2020, 09:43 PM

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use.

We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries.

In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed.

The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang".

In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM

Just an after thought.

In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife".

This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk".

In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM

Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:-

"Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's.

I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

Ian · 22nd March 2020, 03:01 AM

Hi Athanase,

These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok.

Ian.

David · 22nd March 2020, 03:25 AM

I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

Lee · 22nd March 2020, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name.

HOWEVER

Thank you ... and ...understood.

Athanase · 23rd March 2020, 03:26 PM

Thank you for all your comments.
I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding).
For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2020, 09:49 PM

Actually the word "cundrik" is Javanese it is a generic term for "dagger", and it is loosely used. Possibly the best examples of a cundrik that I know of are some agate hilted ladies daggers held by the Mangkunegaraan in Solo.

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

Sajen · 23rd March 2020, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik".

Yes, I've learned the same, I know them also only as cundrik.

21st March 2020, 05:56 PM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 896	Alan, Looking at your picture of the item labeled "keris cuntrik" in the Den Pasar Museum, is this item from Lew's collection essentially of the same type? Additional images and description I bought it for my replica Hanuman keris holder to hold and also because I had acquired a very nice spear with similar sleeves (that I shall share on the general forum once I have pictures ready). Attached Images

22nd March 2020, 03:01 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,041	Hi Athanase, These swords have been discussed on this Forum over the last decade or more. One of the early discussions was here, and there are several more examples shown in that thread. Most of the threads relating to this sword have used the term cundrik, and they have often been attributed to Lombok. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 22nd March 2020 at 03:12 AM.

23rd March 2020, 09:49 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,723	Actually the word "cundrik" is Javanese it is a generic term for "dagger", and it is loosely used. Possibly the best examples of a cundrik that I know of are some agate hilted ladies daggers held by the Mangkunegaraan in Solo. Then we have the item shown here, the only name I've ever known for or heard for this is "cundrik". Attached Images

21st March 2020, 04:34 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alan, Thank you for the ki pedang nagaraja. I do recognize an item in my collection wich couldn't be identified. Now i know what it is.

21st March 2020, 09:43 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,723	Yes Lee, I would be inclined to give it the same name. HOWEVER naming is always only applicable to a particular time, place, situation. If we decide to use a particular name for one or another object, I feel it is perhaps best to identify the reference for the name we use. We think we know what a keris/kris/cris/creese is, but the word first appeared in Old Javanese, along with a few others that could well have at that time been the name for what we call a "keris" now. We simply do not know what the thing that we call a "keris" now was called in its place of origin in the 6th to 14th centuries. In Old Javanese it seems possible that some weapons were given a name in a particular situation that represented the mode of use, so if the same weapon was used to thrust, rather than to slash, or cut, then the name changed. The photo of the Neka piece that I posted is categorised as a "keris" and with the form of a pedang (dhapur). The same applies to the ligan, which is also named as "keris pedang". In order to understand naming conventions in S. E. Asian Maritime societies --- and perhaps some other societies --- we need to understand not only the languages involved, but the way in which the people who used these languages thought.

22nd March 2020, 12:54 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,723	Just an after thought. In respect of the word "tiuk" = "knife". This word has the legitimate alternative spellings, and thus pronunciations of "tihuk" and "tiyuk". In all cases the "k" is a glottal stop.

22nd March 2020, 01:22 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,723	Actually, if we want to use the name that was correct at the time this weapon was in fact being used as a weapon, we probably should name it as:- "Keris Tuwek" , this would have been correct usage up until at least the early 1950's. I doubt that you will find this name in any weapons reference, but it was correct usage before the present surge in "knowledge", much of which has been drawn from sources other than Bali.

22nd March 2020, 03:25 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,041	I actually think this blade bears only a slight resemblance to other blades presented here that have been called "cundrik" or "cuntrik". I also don't believe this blade is in the same category as those known by some collectors as Balinese wedung or tiuk pengentas. It does bear the most resemblance to the blade "Ki Pedang Nagaraja" that Alan has shown, though that blade is luk and this one straight. I would be most likely to refer to this as a keris pedang or perhaps just pedang.

23rd March 2020, 03:26 PM	#9
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 405	Thank you for all your comments. I think I'll make it simple and name it Pedang (or Peding). For me the cundrik is a really different weapon, shorter and with a double edge. Besides, the only cundrik that I have isn't straight but has a wavy blade (and the only other that I saw at an antique dealer in France had the same blade, I have not yet found a cundrik with straight blade in my prices).