wonderful Flyssa

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Teodor,
Very well made points, and certainly well placed, as always consistant with your keen observations. What you say is indeed compelling, but it seems we are somewhat at odds in our perspectives, and its always good to review what we know on these interesting swords.

The flyssa is one of the number of anomalies in the world of swords, which seems to be a relative newcomer. As mentioned, it is first noted by this term in a 1827 emissary's record, but we cannot be sure of the exact style or appearance of the sword itself. We know that by the 1850's it had taken the familiar form with the strange 'camel' ? head, the geometric designs and linear 'fibula' arrangements along the blade back. This decorative motif seems to have been relatively consistant, with the triangular fibula patterns and other geometric design in the hilt as well as on the blade and scabbard.

There have been suggestions that the flyssa evolved from Meditteranean swords of form from ancient times, typically the machaira. The problem with this theory is there is no developmental chronology or line of prototype or transitional weapons, at least that I am aware of. There has been a great deal of agreement that the earlier form of Turkish yataghan of the blade form of 16th century (Suleyman) may well have inflenced the blade profile. These were essentially straight back with recurve and deep belly on the blade edge.
Obviously there is a disparity of about a century or two, but these type 'yataghans' seem to have remained in service for a very long time, not at all unusual for traditional weapons.

Then there is the question of the mail piercing needle point blade, which seems characteristic on these long sword blades of mid 19th century. This particular feature seems to correspond to most probably Caucasian, then Transcaucasian influence as these type blades are known on 17th century Tatar sabres (ordynka) and seem to have developed in the 19th century on the (dare I say it) Black Sea yataghans from Anatolian regions.

The Ottoman Empire relied greatly on conscripts from Caucasian regions, and it is well known that their forces often had elements of various ethnic groups from these regions. It does not seem unlikely that these blade features may well have become amalgamated in what became the flyssa, produced by the skilled armourers of the Iflysen tribes of Berbers.

I am wondering if this is a prototype or transitional weapon, which led to the development of the very decorative and distinctly styled flyssa most commonly found in collections, why would the stylized hilt seem to be a vestigial interpretation of the 'camel head'? The fibular motif also seems to be a reflective interpretation of that seen on regular flyssas with more of a temporal expression than defined image of key apotropaic devices.

This does seem very much a functional, well balanced blade, which would make the earlier attribution seem quite reasonable, but my questions are with the interpretive and vestigial nature of the decoration and hilt. I would point out that in North Africa, swords remain very much in use into present times.
There was considerable rebellion and warfare against French dominion in these regions in the 1960's including Kabylia. Perhaps a sword made carrying traditional style would have been quite important to a participating warrior?

Different perspectives yes, but these are the things I am thinking of, and again, whatever the case, it is a wonderful example to be proud of.

All best regards,
Jim

[chregu]

many thanks for all the interesting contributions.
I personally think the blade to be older than early 20th century
it is perfectly forged and balanced.
gruss Chregu

[Lew]

Hi All

I tend to think this piece is circa 1885-1900 the hilt is wood and could have been covered in brass that was possibly removed. As in past threads I believe we touched on a point where younger warriors started out with flyssa but yearned for a well made yataghan as more of a status weapon. The flyssa that we see here seems to be a cross between the two. It looks Tribally made and not of the finer workmanship seen on older pieces. Still it seems like a good piece to me worthy of being any collection. Remember not all young warriors from that time had money to spend on a higher class flyssa or yataghan and needed to go to the local village sword maker or an apprentice to purchase his weapon.

Lew

[Jim McDougall]

Very astutely observed Lew

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would point out that in North Africa, swords remain very much in use into present times.
There was considerable rebellion and warfare against French dominion in these regions in the 1960's including Kabylia. Perhaps a sword made carrying traditional style would have been quite important to a participating warrior?

Hi Jim
believe me, I'm really sorry if I play spoilsport
but at more than one title I should like to clarified your ideas

In Algeria, dated 1859, the ban on arms trade was effective,
After the "revolt" of 1871, which actively participated Ifïlissen (Kabyle tribe men blacksmith, and "flissa" manufacturers), they were heavily taxed.
Away from the main lines of communication, their industry collapsed.
The swords could not withstand competition guns and gunsmiths had neither the time nor the opportunity to embrace this new technology.

Also, as former fighter during Algeria war (1960/61) I never saw, even heard that some one has collected a "flissa" from rebels

then, I spent 6 years in Algeria those last years, without saw a single one,
my staff mainly 70% of them was Kabyles, never tell me that, it was remaining "flissa" in their homes
my Tagui guys offered me, some "takoubas épées" ... beautiful for them, but just good for tourists
my position of GM with over than 750 staffs was the best to collect if any available
unfortunatly NOTHING remained on spot, every thing have being transfered since the beginning of the 20th to abroad

I realize that I closed doors, and I don't bring more informations, I apologize

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Dom,
This is absolutely outstanding information Dom!! Please dont apologize, this is exactly the kind of valuable input I have always hoped for in these discussions, actual firsthand observations.
My comments were of course based on speculation from notes through the years and examples seen, but without direct information such as you have provided here.
I still believe that these rather unusual variations occurred later in the 19th century, and the rough execution of the motif suggests somewhat less than skilled work on many of them. The note that confirms the collapse of the well established sword making industry in Kabylia after 1871 confirms the note by Lacoste that there was dramatic decrease in quality in these weapons by that time (paraphrased from conversations with Louis Pierre Cavaille).

Thank you so much for adding this Dom, and as always for your valuable contributions in these discussions. My notes are amended accordingly

All the very best,
Jim

[Emanuel]

Hello Chregu,

Nice flyssa. Could you post some pictures from the side, showing the spine of the blade? It looks like the blade might have been shortened in the past. The decoration on the face of the blade goes almost to the point in an uncharacteristic manner.
Also could you show the hilt from the side? I can't see any sign of small tacks or nails that would have held brass sheet on the hilt.

Regards,
Emanuel