Afghan Jezail in York, UK

ward · 28th March 2010, 06:10 PM

Having the lock look like a standard trade lock does not mean it was a fake made for tourist. The smith that made the lock wants it as resellable to a wide population and would mark it as such. Taking the gun apart is up to you. It is not that big a deal mark the bands with chalk as you take them off and unscrew 1 screw. the barrel is then off. As I mentioned it is only 2 screws that hold the lock. If you want to see if the barrel is watered just move one of the bands a little and you can see if it is watered. I doubt that steel was poured down it. I have pulled many loads out of these guns. Mostly it is corroded shot, sometimes rocks glass lead balls and any anything else that happened to be laying around. I would strongly encourage you to have the piece unloaded. Black powder does not go inert but more unstable as times go by. people still bring back cannonballs paint them black and put them on a shelf. Once every couple years you will hear about one of these falling off and detenating. I have had one of the vietnamese flintlocks go off in my hands that had been loaded for 40 years.

RDGAC · 30th March 2010, 10:47 AM

Ward, I hate to sound dense, but what do you mean by "watered"? Also, I enclose herewith a photograph of the reverse of the lock. It does appear that the barrel is only held in place by one screw, through its tang, so it might well be relatively easy to remove the barrel for work; there is, however, another screw on the underside of the bolster around the lock, perhaps for holding the trigger mechanism in place? Still not been able to get a decent shot of the lockplate, unfortunately.

However, regarding the lock, I remain worried about dismantling that. I'm very good, as you can probably tell, at finding things about which to worry!

Jim, I hadn't really thought of it that way. It had occurred to me that the markings were important, of course, but the aspect of assumed "transfer" of the original weapons' capabilities, and the strength of the forces armed with them, had not. I sort of assumed that the markings were treated much like a proof mark, i.e. as a sign of good quality of manufacture. It is, I agree, good to know that such comparatively ancient weapons as these are still in use to this day; if nothing else, they and the people who make them represent a fascinating insight into the pre-industrial processes of manufacturing, and their products, almost unknown in the modern Western world.

ward · 30th March 2010, 02:44 PM

Watered means that the piece is damascus steel. Meaning it is a mixture of steel and iron and will show a pattern. As heavy as that barrel is I think it is possible. The contrast of the pattern is brought out by acid being used on the piece. People mainly use ferricc chloride now but just about everything under the sun has been used including urine.
regarding the barrel one screw at the tang should be all there is. The 2 on the other side of the lock should be there if not one is missing. I would not worry about a additional one near trigger you have no need to take it out. If you look thru the forum you should easily find some pics of other afghan pieces I have posted over the years. If not I can repost some

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2010, 03:47 PM

Jim, I hadn't really thought of it that way. It had occurred to me that the markings were important, of course, but the aspect of assumed "transfer" of the original weapons' capabilities, and the strength of the forces armed with them, had not. I sort of assumed that the markings were treated much like a proof mark, i.e. as a sign of good quality of manufacture. It is, I agree, good to know that such comparatively ancient weapons as these are still in use to this day; if nothing else, they and the people who make them represent a fascinating insight into the pre-industrial processes of manufacturing, and their products, almost unknown in the modern Western world.[/QUOTE]

The markings found on weapons have long been a fascination of mine, and apparantly are drawing the interest of more collectors. In native cultures even where literacy is not prevalent, the keen understanding and perception of symbolism often transcends any language or educational barriers. The assumption of imbued powers through symbolism, in this case seen as strategically placed on weapons, reflects the power of ones faith and far exceeds the baser elements of business and marketing. This has been very much the case in virtually all cultures in varying degree, and there is a great deal of talismanic and amuletic virtue found in the markings and decoration of weapons in European nations from into the Middle Ages and probably earlier.
(see the thread at the top of these pages on early makers trademarks).

This is truly one of the most fascinating elements in the study of historic weapons, whether ethnographic or European, and the perspective in which even this seemingly modern gun should be perceived and described in a pertinant display, just as you have shown by your keenly placed interest in it. I really wish more museum staff, beyond the numbers who already do, would take your approach. If I may say so, very well done!!

All very best regards,
Jim

30th March 2010, 10:47 AM	#2
RDGAC Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: York, UK Posts: 167	Ward, I hate to sound dense, but what do you mean by "watered"? Also, I enclose herewith a photograph of the reverse of the lock. It does appear that the barrel is only held in place by one screw, through its tang, so it might well be relatively easy to remove the barrel for work; there is, however, another screw on the underside of the bolster around the lock, perhaps for holding the trigger mechanism in place? Still not been able to get a decent shot of the lockplate, unfortunately. However, regarding the lock, I remain worried about dismantling that. I'm very good, as you can probably tell, at finding things about which to worry! Jim, I hadn't really thought of it that way. It had occurred to me that the markings were important, of course, but the aspect of assumed "transfer" of the original weapons' capabilities, and the strength of the forces armed with them, had not. I sort of assumed that the markings were treated much like a proof mark, i.e. as a sign of good quality of manufacture. It is, I agree, good to know that such comparatively ancient weapons as these are still in use to this day; if nothing else, they and the people who make them represent a fascinating insight into the pre-industrial processes of manufacturing, and their products, almost unknown in the modern Western world. Last edited by RDGAC; 30th March 2010 at 11:19 AM.

28th March 2010, 06:10 PM	#1
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Having the lock look like a standard trade lock does not mean it was a fake made for tourist. The smith that made the lock wants it as resellable to a wide population and would mark it as such. Taking the gun apart is up to you. It is not that big a deal mark the bands with chalk as you take them off and unscrew 1 screw. the barrel is then off. As I mentioned it is only 2 screws that hold the lock. If you want to see if the barrel is watered just move one of the bands a little and you can see if it is watered. I doubt that steel was poured down it. I have pulled many loads out of these guns. Mostly it is corroded shot, sometimes rocks glass lead balls and any anything else that happened to be laying around. I would strongly encourage you to have the piece unloaded. Black powder does not go inert but more unstable as times go by. people still bring back cannonballs paint them black and put them on a shelf. Once every couple years you will hear about one of these falling off and detenating. I have had one of the vietnamese flintlocks go off in my hands that had been loaded for 40 years.

30th March 2010, 02:44 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Watered means that the piece is damascus steel. Meaning it is a mixture of steel and iron and will show a pattern. As heavy as that barrel is I think it is possible. The contrast of the pattern is brought out by acid being used on the piece. People mainly use ferricc chloride now but just about everything under the sun has been used including urine. regarding the barrel one screw at the tang should be all there is. The 2 on the other side of the lock should be there if not one is missing. I would not worry about a additional one near trigger you have no need to take it out. If you look thru the forum you should easily find some pics of other afghan pieces I have posted over the years. If not I can repost some

30th March 2010, 03:47 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Jim, I hadn't really thought of it that way. It had occurred to me that the markings were important, of course, but the aspect of assumed "transfer" of the original weapons' capabilities, and the strength of the forces armed with them, had not. I sort of assumed that the markings were treated much like a proof mark, i.e. as a sign of good quality of manufacture. It is, I agree, good to know that such comparatively ancient weapons as these are still in use to this day; if nothing else, they and the people who make them represent a fascinating insight into the pre-industrial processes of manufacturing, and their products, almost unknown in the modern Western world.[/QUOTE] The markings found on weapons have long been a fascination of mine, and apparantly are drawing the interest of more collectors. In native cultures even where literacy is not prevalent, the keen understanding and perception of symbolism often transcends any language or educational barriers. The assumption of imbued powers through symbolism, in this case seen as strategically placed on weapons, reflects the power of ones faith and far exceeds the baser elements of business and marketing. This has been very much the case in virtually all cultures in varying degree, and there is a great deal of talismanic and amuletic virtue found in the markings and decoration of weapons in European nations from into the Middle Ages and probably earlier. (see the thread at the top of these pages on early makers trademarks). This is truly one of the most fascinating elements in the study of historic weapons, whether ethnographic or European, and the perspective in which even this seemingly modern gun should be perceived and described in a pertinant display, just as you have shown by your keenly placed interest in it. I really wish more museum staff, beyond the numbers who already do, would take your approach. If I may say so, very well done!! All very best regards, Jim