WHICH SUNDANG?

Greybeard · 23rd March 2010, 10:58 AM

Hello Ganjawulung

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Regards,

Heinz

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM

No Penangsang, you don't bore me.

I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions.

Thank you for expanding your comments.

Thanks Pak Ganja.

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.

A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

ganjawulung · 1st April 2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

It seems that this whatever "sundang" was fit with (probably) a key, not really like a needle-sized pin. A flat key at one side of the square hole. (picture below)...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 11:38 PM

Thank you Pak Ganja.

I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify.

Please accept my apologies.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify.
Please accept my apologies.

Of course no problem at all, Alan. The half round pin-hole near the flat key, do you think it was intentionally made for technical reason?

Thank you in advance, Alan...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 2nd April 2010, 01:15 AM

That half-round cut is where you would expect to find a keyway.

There are a number of possible explanations for it being there, but we cannot really say with any certainty why it is there.

If the blade is truly old and genuine, something that from the photos I am inclined to doubt, the original fit of ganja to pesi may have been done with keyway and key (pin), on the other hand, if it is not old and genuine, perhaps the maker may have tried to fit with a key, but found he had made the ganja hole insufficiently neat to allow a key fitting, so he resorted to using a slip, or a wedge of metal, as we can see.

ganjawulung · 2nd April 2010, 03:03 AM

Thanks, for the explanation Alan,
It is still difficult to convince me that this blade is not old. The light material I feel in my hand is one thing, and the "wasuhan" (quenching) technique of the upper blade is another thing. And I am still quite sure too, that this not "maduran sundang". Except, if one trace the origin of this blade from the warangka, and not from the blade...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Of course Heinz, I enjoy staying here although only two nights in the French speaking part of Switzerland in the lake-side of Neuchatel. This morning, is quite a long trip to certain places in the mountain side of La-Chaux-de-Fonds. No keris found, of course. But more than that: many state of the art watches factories in La-Chaux-de-Fonds. Amazing precision craftmanship... Unfortunately, this is my last night in Switzerland, and tomorrow will be another trip to Barcelona, Spain...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.
It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.
If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.
Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.
A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

Thanks a lot, Alan for your useful explanations. Salute. Later in Jakarta, I will loop more carefully the part you mention. Especially the black material you mention at the "tungkakan". Is it for fitting? Or just filling the gap between the blade and the ganja -- I mean recent filling the gap with black material, simply intending for just filling, and not fitting the ganja.... Also I will take a look and photo once again, a small spot in one square part of ganja's hole.

Once again, thanks a lot Alan for your knowledgeable explanation..

GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2010, 01:46 AM

I normally use a 2.5X or 3X machinists loupe. These magnifications are sufficient for the purpose and easier to use than high mag jeweller's loupes.

If you pick at the filling material with a needle and watch through the loupe, you can usually see the composition and consistency of the material. If its just dirt and rust, it picks away quite easily, but if it is a modern exoxy based filler it tends to stick together and you break little bits of it off, if it is plastic steel its almost impossible to pick it away.

But then there is the possibility that the material was put there during a recent renovation to protect the ganja and blade from further erosion:- just finding a modern material in place does not necessarily gaurantee that it is a modern blade, its only an indicator that it might be.

Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja.

Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.

ganjawulung · 24th March 2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja.
Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.

Thanks a lot, for all the advice. I think it is very useful too, for everyone in this Warung. Really knowledgeable advice... Even in my own hand, still everytime I misjudged to analyze what happened to the blade I was seeing. So everytime I am posting the blade to ask the more knowledgeable person like you, Alan, in this Warung to comment... Thanks a lot

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2010, 10:27 AM

Pak Ganja, I thank you for your compliment, however, I cannot understand why you would consider that any opinion given upon the basis of photographs could possibly be more valid than an opinion given in the physical presence of a keris.

I'm positive that everybody who has had any lengthy contact with keris has made many errors when attempting appraisal of a keris. All of the really big name people whom I have known personally have made errors, not once, but repeatedly, and I myself have made many errors. These errors have been made with the keris in hand.

Now, when we consider that all we have to work with in respect of a photograph , is a flat two dimensional image that in most cases lacks even a reasonable rendition of detail, then it is inevitable that the error count will rise. To fairly judge a keris we need to hold it in the hand, consider it in three dimensions, consider the percieved weight and balance, consider the texture of the material, and consider many other details that simply cannot be provided in even the very best photograph, let alone an inferior image on a computer screen.

Any opinions that are given upon the basis of a photograph must be viewed as tentative only. The opinions that you would receive from your friends when they actually have the blade in hand must be given much more weight than any opinion given here, no matter who gives that opinion.

1st April 2010, 11:38 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Thank you Pak Ganja. I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify. Please accept my apologies. Attached Images

23rd March 2010, 10:58 AM	#1
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Ganjawulung Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the German speaking part of Switzerland. Regards, Heinz

23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	No Penangsang, you don't bore me. I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions. Thank you for expanding your comments. Thanks Pak Ganja. It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used. It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi. If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint. Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating. A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

2nd April 2010, 01:15 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	That half-round cut is where you would expect to find a keyway. There are a number of possible explanations for it being there, but we cannot really say with any certainty why it is there. If the blade is truly old and genuine, something that from the photos I am inclined to doubt, the original fit of ganja to pesi may have been done with keyway and key (pin), on the other hand, if it is not old and genuine, perhaps the maker may have tried to fit with a key, but found he had made the ganja hole insufficiently neat to allow a key fitting, so he resorted to using a slip, or a wedge of metal, as we can see.

2nd April 2010, 03:03 AM	#7
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks, for the explanation Alan, It is still difficult to convince me that this blade is not old. The light material I feel in my hand is one thing, and the "wasuhan" (quenching) technique of the upper blade is another thing. And I am still quite sure too, that this not "maduran sundang". Except, if one trace the origin of this blade from the warangka, and not from the blade... GANJAWULUNG

24th March 2010, 01:46 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I normally use a 2.5X or 3X machinists loupe. These magnifications are sufficient for the purpose and easier to use than high mag jeweller's loupes. If you pick at the filling material with a needle and watch through the loupe, you can usually see the composition and consistency of the material. If its just dirt and rust, it picks away quite easily, but if it is a modern exoxy based filler it tends to stick together and you break little bits of it off, if it is plastic steel its almost impossible to pick it away. But then there is the possibility that the material was put there during a recent renovation to protect the ganja and blade from further erosion:- just finding a modern material in place does not necessarily gaurantee that it is a modern blade, its only an indicator that it might be. Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja. Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.

24th March 2010, 10:27 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Pak Ganja, I thank you for your compliment, however, I cannot understand why you would consider that any opinion given upon the basis of photographs could possibly be more valid than an opinion given in the physical presence of a keris. I'm positive that everybody who has had any lengthy contact with keris has made many errors when attempting appraisal of a keris. All of the really big name people whom I have known personally have made errors, not once, but repeatedly, and I myself have made many errors. These errors have been made with the keris in hand. Now, when we consider that all we have to work with in respect of a photograph , is a flat two dimensional image that in most cases lacks even a reasonable rendition of detail, then it is inevitable that the error count will rise. To fairly judge a keris we need to hold it in the hand, consider it in three dimensions, consider the percieved weight and balance, consider the texture of the material, and consider many other details that simply cannot be provided in even the very best photograph, let alone an inferior image on a computer screen. Any opinions that are given upon the basis of a photograph must be viewed as tentative only. The opinions that you would receive from your friends when they actually have the blade in hand must be given much more weight than any opinion given here, no matter who gives that opinion.