WHICH SUNDANG?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 12:26 PM

You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...)

Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang.

And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy.....

Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 07:03 PM

Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today.

One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit.

That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja.

During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe.

Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place.

However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time.

I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

PenangsangII · 23rd March 2010, 02:29 AM

Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:-

1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him.
2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of).
3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone.

"Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me......

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

The best way to know how the "sundang" maker fitted the ganja to the square pesi, is to loose (open) both part. But of course, I won't do that in this "sundang" because it is still fitted and strong enough that you may not open with your barely hand...

To loop it again and again, well Alan, for this time being I can't do that either, while I can not handle or loop it -- 'cause the blade is in Jakarta while now I'm still far away in Neuchatel, Switzerland...

What I know is, it seems that the maker simply used both method -- either a shrink fit method, and using a smal "sindik" (round, needle sized metal?) in one square side, and the part which fit the ganja is bigger than outside part that you may see from outside pesi... To prove it, it is impossible not to unfit the ganja from the "sundang"... What I've seen is, that no trace of "epoxy" or other recent glueing process in this blade

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

No Penangsang, you didn't hijack but enriching the thread.. Sure, later in Jakarta, I will loop and loop again the part you just discussed.

Thanks a lot,
GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

Greybeard · 23rd March 2010, 10:58 AM

Hello Ganjawulung

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Regards,

Heinz

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM

No Penangsang, you don't bore me.

I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions.

Thank you for expanding your comments.

Thanks Pak Ganja.

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.

A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

ganjawulung · 1st April 2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.

It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.

If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.

It seems that this whatever "sundang" was fit with (probably) a key, not really like a needle-sized pin. A flat key at one side of the square hole. (picture below)...

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 1st April 2010, 11:38 PM

Thank you Pak Ganja.

I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify.

Please accept my apologies.

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy
your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the
German speaking part of Switzerland.

Of course Heinz, I enjoy staying here although only two nights in the French speaking part of Switzerland in the lake-side of Neuchatel. This morning, is quite a long trip to certain places in the mountain side of La-Chaux-de-Fonds. No keris found, of course. But more than that: many state of the art watches factories in La-Chaux-de-Fonds. Amazing precision craftmanship... Unfortunately, this is my last night in Switzerland, and tomorrow will be another trip to Barcelona, Spain...

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used.
It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi.
If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint.
Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating.
A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

Thanks a lot, Alan for your useful explanations. Salute. Later in Jakarta, I will loop more carefully the part you mention. Especially the black material you mention at the "tungkakan". Is it for fitting? Or just filling the gap between the blade and the ganja -- I mean recent filling the gap with black material, simply intending for just filling, and not fitting the ganja.... Also I will take a look and photo once again, a small spot in one square part of ganja's hole.

Once again, thanks a lot Alan for your knowledgeable explanation..

GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

A. G. Maisey · 24th March 2010, 01:46 AM

I normally use a 2.5X or 3X machinists loupe. These magnifications are sufficient for the purpose and easier to use than high mag jeweller's loupes.

If you pick at the filling material with a needle and watch through the loupe, you can usually see the composition and consistency of the material. If its just dirt and rust, it picks away quite easily, but if it is a modern exoxy based filler it tends to stick together and you break little bits of it off, if it is plastic steel its almost impossible to pick it away.

But then there is the possibility that the material was put there during a recent renovation to protect the ganja and blade from further erosion:- just finding a modern material in place does not necessarily gaurantee that it is a modern blade, its only an indicator that it might be.

Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja.

Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.

ganjawulung · 24th March 2010, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja.
Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.

Thanks a lot, for all the advice. I think it is very useful too, for everyone in this Warung. Really knowledgeable advice... Even in my own hand, still everytime I misjudged to analyze what happened to the blade I was seeing. So everytime I am posting the blade to ask the more knowledgeable person like you, Alan, in this Warung to comment... Thanks a lot

GANJAWULUNG

1st April 2010, 11:38 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you Pak Ganja. I had a bit of difficulty in seeing the piece of metal used to tighten the ganja, so I have taken the liberty of playing with your image a little in order to clarify. Please accept my apologies. Attached Images

22nd March 2010, 12:26 PM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...) Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang. And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy..... Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

22nd March 2010, 07:03 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today. One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit. That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja. During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe. Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place. However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time. I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

23rd March 2010, 02:29 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:- 1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him. 2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of). 3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone. "Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me...... I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

23rd March 2010, 10:58 AM	#5
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Ganjawulung Welcome to Switzerland! I hope you'll enjoy your stay here. BTW, I live near Aarau, in the German speaking part of Switzerland. Regards, Heinz

23rd March 2010, 12:16 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	No Penangsang, you don't bore me. I think I now understand where you're coming from, and it seems that we are travelling in different directions. Thank you for expanding your comments. Thanks Pak Ganja. It won't be a shrink fit if a pin or key has been used. It will be a press fit, ie, cut to a very neat fit, but not requiring heat to put in place over the pesi. If you use a pin after a shrink fit, you actually run the risk of weakening the joint. Looking at the image, it does look as if iron filings and epoxy, or maybe plastic steel has been used to fill, but you you say this is not the case, OK, its not. But I can't help wondering how the black material that fills the gap between blade and ganja has finished as it has at the tungkakan. Fascinating. A ganja can build up corrosion in a very short period of time, and under some circamstances, this can bind the ganja to the pesi.

24th March 2010, 01:46 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I normally use a 2.5X or 3X machinists loupe. These magnifications are sufficient for the purpose and easier to use than high mag jeweller's loupes. If you pick at the filling material with a needle and watch through the loupe, you can usually see the composition and consistency of the material. If its just dirt and rust, it picks away quite easily, but if it is a modern exoxy based filler it tends to stick together and you break little bits of it off, if it is plastic steel its almost impossible to pick it away. But then there is the possibility that the material was put there during a recent renovation to protect the ganja and blade from further erosion:- just finding a modern material in place does not necessarily gaurantee that it is a modern blade, its only an indicator that it might be. Whether the material is there to fill, or just to give protection, the end effect is that the adhesive qualities of the epoxy resin will assist in firmly fixing the ganja. Really, the only way you can be certain what it is , is by close physical examination. As has already been demonstrated in another thread, photographs are a very poor substitute for having the thing in your hand.