WHICH SUNDANG?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 06:05 AM

And though I cant be sure that my opinion is correct, the mismatched blade and dress are normally attributed to Kalimantan....

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 06:38 AM

Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things.

Please note:- this is a square pesi.

Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted.

Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things.

Please note:- this is a square pesi.

Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted.

Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

Alan, my teacher, an Empu by Malaysian standard, use shrink fitting technique all the time, compare to pandai besi's standard who normally use glue or epoxy to hold the blade and ganja.... the drawback of using this technique however, a gap between blade and ganja would be visible (more or less).

Could you please elaborate the techniques you mentioned, the key way and the crimp.... is it the same as using a "pasak" to tighten the ganja to the pesi?

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 10:13 AM

That's interesting information, Penangsang.

Very interesting.

However, I would imagine your teacher is fitting a round pesi to a round hole.

The pesi on this sundang is square.

When we fit a square shaft ( the pesi) to a square slot ( the cut in the ganja) there are unequal stresses at the square cut corners of the slot. The material in the ganja is of small mass, thus the stresses will not be great, however, they will exist, and if that ganja is of layer welded material , we could expect to see any imperfections in welding fail. Especially so when we realise that the sides of the oblong slot are very thin in comparison with the length from the pesi to each end of the ganja.

Still, as I have remarked, the mass is not great, so with perfect fitting, and a press fit of only a few thou, you'd possibly get away with it. Provided you did not go into high orange on the heating.

With a round hole and round shaft (pesi) the same unequal stresses do not occur, but are distributed evenly around the hole.

But then there is still one problem that is insurmountable with traditional hand-tool techniques, and that is the achievement of a tight fit betweem ganja and blade base. I've made a number of keris, and more than a few ganjas. To get a neat tight fit between ganja and blade base is a swine of a job that requires repeated fitting and filing or scraping.

If you want to do a shrink fit you do not have the possibility of achieving a tight fit of ganja to blade base, and anything less is simply not acceptable.

Now, if we consider the blade that is the subject of discussion here, we can see a reasonably close fit, and we can see a very considerable gap between the pesi and the ganja. Anybody who has the skill to hand cut a slot to a tolerance of the few thou needed to achieve a shrink fit, would certainly have the skill to cut that slot so that it fitted closely to the pesi at its top.

Yes, it is possible to shrink fit a ganja to a pesi, but it is not possible to use this fitting method with hand tools and achieve an acceptable fit to the blade base. Most especially so with a square cut pesi and slot.

The crimp method of fitting is where the hole is cut to a press fit on the pesi, and then a punch and hammer is used to tighten the ganja hole around the pesi. I have most often seen this method used in Bugis and Peninsula keris.

The key method of fitting involves cutting a keyway with a very small file into the side of the hole in the pesi, then a small key is made to fit that keyway --- a tiny piece of tapered steel --- which is driven home with a punch, thus tightening the ganja. Sloppy and lazy makers use a small nail instead of a purpose cut key. The best position for the key is at the buntut urang side of the pesi hole.

So to my mind, the question remains:- how is the ganja kept in place?

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 12:26 PM

You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...)

Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang.

And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy.....

Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

A. G. Maisey · 22nd March 2010, 07:03 PM

Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today.

One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit.

That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja.

During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe.

Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place.

However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time.

I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

PenangsangII · 23rd March 2010, 02:29 AM

Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:-

1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him.
2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of).
3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone.

"Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me......

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

ganjawulung · 23rd March 2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

The best way to know how the "sundang" maker fitted the ganja to the square pesi, is to loose (open) both part. But of course, I won't do that in this "sundang" because it is still fitted and strong enough that you may not open with your barely hand...

To loop it again and again, well Alan, for this time being I can't do that either, while I can not handle or loop it -- 'cause the blade is in Jakarta while now I'm still far away in Neuchatel, Switzerland...

What I know is, it seems that the maker simply used both method -- either a shrink fit method, and using a smal "sindik" (round, needle sized metal?) in one square side, and the part which fit the ganja is bigger than outside part that you may see from outside pesi... To prove it, it is impossible not to unfit the ganja from the "sundang"... What I've seen is, that no trace of "epoxy" or other recent glueing process in this blade

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...

No Penangsang, you didn't hijack but enriching the thread.. Sure, later in Jakarta, I will loop and loop again the part you just discussed.

Thanks a lot,
GANJAWULUNG (Neuchatel, March 23, 2010)

22nd March 2010, 06:05 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	And though I cant be sure that my opinion is correct, the mismatched blade and dress are normally attributed to Kalimantan....

22nd March 2010, 06:38 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Penangsan, I do understand shrink fitting and have used it myself in non-keris related things. Please note:- this is a square pesi. Can you please advise the localities where shrink fitting of a ganja is normally carried out. I am only familar with two usual methods:- the keyway and the crimp. I doubt that I have seen a blade where the ganja was shrink fitted. Is this a common method of fitting the ganja in Moro type keris?

22nd March 2010, 10:13 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	That's interesting information, Penangsang. Very interesting. However, I would imagine your teacher is fitting a round pesi to a round hole. The pesi on this sundang is square. When we fit a square shaft ( the pesi) to a square slot ( the cut in the ganja) there are unequal stresses at the square cut corners of the slot. The material in the ganja is of small mass, thus the stresses will not be great, however, they will exist, and if that ganja is of layer welded material , we could expect to see any imperfections in welding fail. Especially so when we realise that the sides of the oblong slot are very thin in comparison with the length from the pesi to each end of the ganja. Still, as I have remarked, the mass is not great, so with perfect fitting, and a press fit of only a few thou, you'd possibly get away with it. Provided you did not go into high orange on the heating. With a round hole and round shaft (pesi) the same unequal stresses do not occur, but are distributed evenly around the hole. But then there is still one problem that is insurmountable with traditional hand-tool techniques, and that is the achievement of a tight fit betweem ganja and blade base. I've made a number of keris, and more than a few ganjas. To get a neat tight fit between ganja and blade base is a swine of a job that requires repeated fitting and filing or scraping. If you want to do a shrink fit you do not have the possibility of achieving a tight fit of ganja to blade base, and anything less is simply not acceptable. Now, if we consider the blade that is the subject of discussion here, we can see a reasonably close fit, and we can see a very considerable gap between the pesi and the ganja. Anybody who has the skill to hand cut a slot to a tolerance of the few thou needed to achieve a shrink fit, would certainly have the skill to cut that slot so that it fitted closely to the pesi at its top. Yes, it is possible to shrink fit a ganja to a pesi, but it is not possible to use this fitting method with hand tools and achieve an acceptable fit to the blade base. Most especially so with a square cut pesi and slot. The crimp method of fitting is where the hole is cut to a press fit on the pesi, and then a punch and hammer is used to tighten the ganja hole around the pesi. I have most often seen this method used in Bugis and Peninsula keris. The key method of fitting involves cutting a keyway with a very small file into the side of the hole in the pesi, then a small key is made to fit that keyway --- a tiny piece of tapered steel --- which is driven home with a punch, thus tightening the ganja. Sloppy and lazy makers use a small nail instead of a purpose cut key. The best position for the key is at the buntut urang side of the pesi hole. So to my mind, the question remains:- how is the ganja kept in place?

22nd March 2010, 12:26 PM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	You are absolutely right Alan, the shrink fitting method is used to fix the round pesi into the round ganja hole - and according to my teacher, it is the old tradition (what ever that means...) Although i dont have any sundang that was made by my teacher, I was told by him that is the only way for him to attach the ganja to the blade, be it on a keris or sundang. And, your question about how the ganja is kept in place - would not it be securely kept in place when the ganja is mounted to the pesi when its tightly cold shrunk? Some of my kerises were made by my teacher, and the ganja were fitted this way... I have never experienced the ganja of my kerises loosen even after soaking them in citric acid solution, as compared to using glue or epoxy..... Maybe I have not answered your question, if so, please rephrase it again as English is my third language after Malay and Javanese

22nd March 2010, 07:03 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Penangsan, if it is "the old tradition", all I can say is that any keris maker who could achieve a tight fit of the ganja to the blade base by using this shrink fit method knew a technique of mating metal surfaces that was far in advance of anything known today. One of my sons owns a precision metal working factory. His normal work involves working to the smallest tolerances imaginable, and the mating of one flat metal surface to another flat metal surface. Using his state of the art methods he tells me he could mate the base of a ganja to the base of a blade with no gap, using a shrink fit method to fit the ganja. However, when I asked him if it were possible for him to do it with hand tools, he told me what I already knew:- impossible to achieve a neat fit. That your teacher, and others before him , could achieve this neat fit by shrink fitting the ganja simply astounds me --- and for the most part Peninsula blades do have a neatly fitting ganja. During my lifetime I have cleaned, stained, repaired a very large number of blades. I don't know how many, but a lot. Many of those blades were Peninsula blades, I would guess that most were from the 19th century. I cannot recall ever noticing a single blade, Peninsula or otherwise, that used a shrink fit ganja. Often a crimped ganja will appear to be a shrink fit, and it is only when you look very closely and see the punch marks around the pesi that you realise how it was fitted. Sometimes these punch marks might have been filed flat, and you can often detect this by use of a loupe. Yes, of course a ganja that has been shrink fitted to the pesi will be kept tightly in place. However, in the case of the blade under discussion I draw your attention to the large gap that is visible around the pesi:- any maker who could cut the pesi slot with such precision as to permit shrink fitting of the ganja could most certainly cut that slot to a neat fit around the top of the slot; additionally, the base of the pesi has been mated to the base of the blade with reasonable precision, yes, its not good, but it is certainly better than could be achieved at the first attempt with hand tools --- and shrink fitting demands that you get it right first time:- with a shrink fit you cannot remove and replace the ganja two or three hundred times until you get the mating of surfaces correct --- you need to get it right first time. I'm waiting for Pak Ganja to dig some of the muck out from around the pesi and between the blade base and the pesi, and tell us just exactly how the ganja has been attached to this blade.

23rd March 2010, 02:29 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks Alan for your lengthy explanation, and i now know precisely what you meant. Please allow me to clarify several matters:- 1) Keris made by my teacher where the ganja are attached to the pesi using shrink fit method do have gap between it and the blade, and I have not seen a neat fit on a single keris made by him. 2) My teacher learnt his trade from a guru who had learnt keris smithing in Cirebon, Indonesia. The "ilmu" is from Cirebon, and the gurus before him can be traced back to 8 generations. However, kerises made by him follow peninsula pakem with strong Cirebon/Pajajaran influence (actually there's no 100 percent defined Peninsula pakem that I know of). 3) My teacher pays more attention to "luck measurement" inside out compared to outer beauty alone. "Keris yang baik adalah keris yang bermanafaat kepada tuannya" - the phrase he often told me...... I hope my ramblings above do not bore you Alan, and the rest of the readers as I have no intention to hijack this thread. I am waiting for Pak Ganja's response as well...