Could the closed Greek helmet kill a warrior?

[Aqtai]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

An interesting counterinformation is that I have read and heard that the crusades helped promote the development of complex metal plate armour in Europe, as previously to invading the Middle East the (basically) Normans/Germans/etc. had popularly used cuirbolli for the hard plates in their body armour. The story told is that cuirbolli, being hide stiffened by being permeated by molten wax, is quite stiff and hard in Western Europe, but in the heat of Palestine, what are hard waxes in Europe are much softer, and more tend to lubricate a cut.....I have worn a large closed helm in recreation combat and sparring and it does get mightily hot in the Sun. Note that the familiar barbut style ancient Greek helmet (though they actually used many types, varying with individual, region, time, etc.) could evidently be pushed up to expose the face and take air in times when appropriate/safe. Of course, heat does kill, but then, so does a spear or club to the head......

I think that the Crusades had an impact on European armours as a result of the Crusaders adopting Islamic armours and taking them back to Europe. By the late 11th century many types of armour had disappeared in Western Europe, the main types used by western Europeans were mail, leather armours and quilted fabric armours. Islamic Countries in addition to using these types were also using lamellar armour, both leather and iron, brigandines, kazaghands, mail camails attached to helmets, and possibly even 'mail-and-plate' armour and limb defences such as bazu-bands.

I think the basinets and 'pairs-of-plates' which appeared in 14th century Western Europe were directly infuenced by similar Islamic armours.

With regards to the Hellenic Corinthian helmet, I believe that the wearers might have suffered from heat stroke on exeptionally hot days, but this was a very rare occurance, otherwise it was a very practical helmet. After all it was used by the Greeks in one form or another from the middle of the 8th century BC up until the mid-5th century BC.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Louieblades,

True the Greeks were normally not heavily dressed, and that would have helped of course. If they had a closed helmet on the head, this would mean that the ‘control centre’ of the body was in a ‘steam boiler’, heated by the sun from the outside and by the energy used by fighting at the inside, which must have been unbearable and could, I think, lead to false judgements when decisions had to be taken.

At the time when the British troops were fighting in America during the revolution, the soldiers were a valuable part of the army. In India in the old times, it was not quite like that, as many of the soldiers were recruited amongst poor people, armed and sent off to the battle field, to die one way or another, as the leaders regarded the soldiers as theirs to use as they pleased, which was quite another way of thinking than they did under the American revolution.

Hi Tom/Aqtai,

I have never had such a helmet on, so I can only guess how unbearable the heat must be, but I do remember how hot it was to get into cars, before they got air conditioned, when they had been standing in the sun on a very hot summer day – one of this helmets must have been far worse, not only be course of the sun, but also be course of the energy used in the battle – running forward at full speed, swinging the sword over the head yelling ‘CHARGE’ – maybe most even reached the enemy, before they dropped.

[Yannis]

Dear friends, I am back home after a long trip and I found this discusion very amusing.

As a Greek with some knowledge on the history of my land, I have never heard of someone dying of heatstroke during an ancient battle. But probably they were.

There is a very famous story about Fidipedes, the man that after the battle of Marathon run to Athens to bring the news of victory. He died from exhaustion, but not only from this running. Before few days he had run to Sparta to ask help and after that he was fighting in the battlefield. So Marathon running was born.

Also it was a tradition in ancient Greece, that it was alive till the greek revolution of 1821. The warriors used to wash their body and their hair before battle. Because of this thread, I am wondering now if this tradition was actually a way to keep their body temperature low.

Finally I sugest you, if you are interest about ancient greek fighting to read Persfield's novel "Gates of fire" about the spartan warriors and the battle of Thermopylae. If you like swords you will love this novel. It maked me understand how a man can stand all day choping and slashing other humans.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Yannis,

Nice to hear you are amused. I could of course have chosen another helmet, but I chose the Greek helmet as I thought it would be easier for the other members to imagine the heat, as it is closed. When historians wrote about how many dead there were after a battle, I would be more than surprised if they had written how many died of heath stroke, so no wonder that you did not see any references to it anywhere – neither have I, but that is no reason not to wonder about it.

[Lew]

Jens

Check out this link.http://www.museumreplicas.com/websto...archPosition=9

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory


Lew

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Maybe one of us can one day buy this helmet and test out your theory

I have test modern army helmet and I use to wear my motorcycle helmet in greek summer and they are both enough hot. Thank you

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Lew/Yannis,

Splendid idea. After having thought about it once more, I think I will keep Yannis company and stand by the ringside video filming you on the ‘battle field’, This will be a most important part of experimental archaeology – and I am sure, that would you write a book about the experiment, it might very well be a bestseller. BTW I don’t think the temperature should be under 35C.
Jens