Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

mross · 24th February 2010, 09:04 PM

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

Rick · 25th February 2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Battara · 25th February 2010, 04:09 AM

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Dimasalang · 25th February 2010, 06:26 AM

A lot of great points in this thread!

I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford.

I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

Battara · 25th February 2010, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hideyoshi

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

HI Hideyoshi. I believe that the example is etched due to the darkness of the steel. But that is another issue.

You have some really nice barong blades there with nice lamination (would love to see the whole barongs if you don't mind posting them).

Here is a barong that I made the pommel and replaced 75% of the missing brass inlay. Very similar to yours, except after I polished and re-etched the blade, there were no laminations in the blade (the piece belonged to a former member here Ian). Below are the pictures. (I also made the scabbard):

hideyoshi · 26th February 2010, 04:50 AM

Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back.

kino · 26th February 2010, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

I think this blade has its pattern hidden. Even if GC Stone etched this blade before he gave it away , the lamination lines would be obscured by over 70 yrs of storage, and I highly doubt that the museum would etch it.

Battara · 27th February 2010, 03:19 AM

Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't.

As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades.

The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.

Battara · 16th March 2011, 11:14 PM

Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures.

Enjoy!

BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see.

mross · 25th February 2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Clean up yes, but there is a HUGE difference in stock removal to shape and forge to shape and clean up. By the way files are more of a modern tool, in the old days they used a draw knife.

25th February 2010, 04:09 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points. For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum. Attached Images

26th February 2010, 04:50 AM	#7
hideyoshi Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 58	Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back. Attached Images Last edited by hideyoshi; 26th February 2010 at 05:17 AM.

16th March 2011, 11:14 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures. Enjoy! BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see. Attached Images

24th February 2010, 09:04 PM	#1
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

25th February 2010, 06:26 AM	#4
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	A lot of great points in this thread! I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford. I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

27th February 2010, 03:19 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't. As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades. The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.