Ivory Silver Swassa Barong

Rick · 24th February 2010, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned.

Hold on thar ..

How did we come to this conclusion ???

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 05:50 PM

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 07:45 PM

IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL.
IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY.
PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY.
I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS.
I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE.
A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS.

THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

mross · 24th February 2010, 09:04 PM

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

Rick · 25th February 2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Battara · 25th February 2010, 04:09 AM

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Dimasalang · 25th February 2010, 06:26 AM

A lot of great points in this thread!

I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford.

I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

kino · 26th February 2010, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

I think this blade has its pattern hidden. Even if GC Stone etched this blade before he gave it away , the lamination lines would be obscured by over 70 yrs of storage, and I highly doubt that the museum would etch it.

mross · 25th February 2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Clean up yes, but there is a HUGE difference in stock removal to shape and forge to shape and clean up. By the way files are more of a modern tool, in the old days they used a draw knife.

Rick · 24th February 2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Chinese blades; I question whether they were really meant to be high status or some just ended up in nice dress .

I have seen these blades on lesser-than-datu-quality barungs .

Anyway, we digress .........

Bill · 24th February 2010, 09:34 PM

I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same.

I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.

24th February 2010, 05:50 PM	#2
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Sorry, I should have explained. Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith. Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29 Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 24th February 2010 at 06:10 PM.

25th February 2010, 04:09 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points. For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum. Attached Images

24th February 2010, 07:45 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL. IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY. PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY. I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS. I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE. A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS. THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

24th February 2010, 09:04 PM	#4
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

25th February 2010, 06:26 AM	#7
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	A lot of great points in this thread! I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford. I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

24th February 2010, 09:34 PM	#12
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same. I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.