Question about a briquet

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2010, 04:20 PM

I think these examples are excellent for discussion as they represent two most puzzling conundrums in the world of regulation swords for other ranks and departmental or auxiliary units. In many ways they bring back great memories for me as these forms are among the first swords I ever collected many, MANY years ago!!

First of all the briquet. I bought one of these when I was just a very young collector and of course to me it looked every bit like a 'pirate sword' !! Visually, these type of swords had always been associated with the many 'Howard Pyle' style images of pirates (though he even used the showy brass bowl hilts of the Civil War naval swords for effect). The one I had was with a heavy unfullered wedge type blade, with two initials in the cast brass hilt in cartouche. At that time I had no idea I was to begin a lifetime voyage in the odyssey of studying antique arms, and as was typical, my quest in trying to learn more on this old briquet carried on intermittantly for literally decades.

I soon discovered that rather than being a pirate sword, or for that matter anything naval, this was an ordinary artillery sword of the early 19th century.
Actually I thought it was probably British, as the first book I ever identified one in was by Wilkinson I believe, then similar entries in Blair and others.
When Robson came out in 1975 ("British Military Swords" Brian Robson) he notes, "...in the early years of the 19th century ordinary artillerymen were armed with a short curved sword with straight brass knucklebow hilt, closely similar to the French infantry sword (briquet) of AnIX (1800-01) and AnXI (1802-03)".

In subsequent years, I discovered that these inexpensively produced cast brass hilt other ranks swords were used by virtually every European country, as well as many others and as often quipped in talks with other collectors 'the Martians probably even had 'em!'. These seem to have come in around the end of the 18th century, and opening of the 19th, and were used until about mid century. As for my own example, I finally determined by measurements etc. and the unusual flat blade, that it was Spanish colonial with hilt origin uncertain. In the amalgamated hybrid weapons found in Mexico I even found one of these with three bar cavalry guard, briquet hilt and a shortened 18th century Spanish dragoon blade with 'Spanish motto'.

With the apparantly old blade, the very blingy brass hilt and curious stamps mid blade, I might suggest this could have come out of the Bannerman empire of military surplus and antiquities of the 1930s I believe in New York. It seems they were adept at producing cast brass hilts and putting them with old blades, and the markings with some sort of inventory notation.

The other sabre, is in my impression indeed a mountain artillery gunners sabre from India, but not the M1896, which is described by Robson (p.153) as one of the "..rarest of all British military patterns". Another of my early 'conquests' was one of these, with the cast ribbed hilt and stirrup hilt guard, which like this, is flatter and cast in brass. The M1896 is a much deeper profiled sheet steel guard in somewhat of a shallow bowl type shape.
The mountain batteries were individual units that began in 1850 with the Hazara Mountain Train, followed by the Peshawar Mountain Train in 1853.
These mountain artillery units were outstanding examples of the innovation and colorful times of Kipling in the mountain passes of the Khyber in the 19th century, and by 1889 there were 8 units. Their guns were actually mobile in that they were dismantled and loaded onto pack horses.
With that I would consider this sabre relatively unique in its own right, as there cannot have been that many of these sabres in use, and it I understand correctly, they were typically carried only by havildars (sergeants). I believe there were numbers of these swords carried in various Indian units into WWII.

All in all, while not even remotely naval, both of these swords might be considered unique in thier own way. If the briquet turns out to be a Bannerman product it has its own place in Americana, in the early days of militaria collecting.
As for the mountain artillery sabre, it may well have begun its time in the historic passes of the Khyber and found its way into Burmese regions or other British areas where Indian regiments posted in WWII.

It seems that even in the most pedestrian instances with many weapons, they always have stories to tell

and as an old pirate hunter I know well that 'the treasure is in the hunt'!!!

All the best,
Jim

katana · 24th February 2010, 05:56 PM

Hi Mark
thought I'd post some of the auction pictures ....'tweaked' alittle to make them a little clearer

Regards David

.

M ELEY · 24th February 2010, 09:29 PM

Ouch! Well, I didn't have high hopes on the briquet to start with, BUT the iron hilted piece...now that one I truly believed to be naval. These have been listed as such in many of the Fagan, Frederick's Swords, etc, etc...
Live and learn, I guess. I'm not upset, though. As you say, Jim, the importance and fun is in the exploration. That being said, I'll probably move these through a friend of mine who collects that sort of thing. So, it's back to the search for the next mystery!

Oh, forgot to thank you, David, for tweeking the pics for me. It is appreciated!

celtan · 25th February 2010, 07:21 PM

I think your swords were the priced possession of someone, who liked them well enough as to bother polishing their brass to make them look "better".

As it is, all the swords of the 1816 type I have ever owned, have had a flat blade, never "wide" grooved. That by itself is interesting enough in yours.

FYE: Enclosed are a few related images from my menagerie. In fact, my sword in the Horstmann hanger thread is also a type of briquette, a combination of a brass cast hilt and steel blade.

M ELEY · 25th February 2010, 09:04 PM

Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.

celtan · 25th February 2010, 10:25 PM

Hi Eley,

I also like it, but I think its Swedish.

It's the only one I have seen with a curved blade,all the others were straight...I don't know if it's a regulation modification. Many of these were sent to Norway, and perhaps even modified there.

The Scandinavians tend to modify and reuse their blades, sometimes using them for longer than a century...

The last two are no longer in my hands. I also had 2 US Artillery M-1832s and a French M1831 with a rare "Greek" hilt. All with the typical solid brass hilt and steel blades.

Best!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.

M ELEY · 28th February 2010, 12:53 PM

www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=88275

www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=44410

OK, so I need some clarification on these mountaineer/artillery swords. Something is bugging me about their classification. Case in point, the above models. These two are listed as mountaineer, yet their pattern is clearly DOCUMENTED as naval in Boarders Away (pg 87) and Boarders Away 2 (pg 189), so what gives? These ribbed iron hilts remain elusive to their exac use, but the two above even have GR on their blades, which is exactly what is found on the m1803 cutlass? Didn't the m1898 Mountaineer models come much later? Did I make a mistake and truly pass up on a naval iron-hilt? (

)I know Fagan & Co and Frederick's Sword catalogs aren't well- researched volumes, but for many years, they have been listing swords like the eBay one and the above as naval? Can anyone show the Mountaineer sword as pictured in the mentioned book? Perhaps these sword-types were re-issued after the Age of Sail, just as the French M1801 had it's bowl removed and issued to ground troops later in the century? Comments please!

24th February 2010, 05:56 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Mark thought I'd post some of the auction pictures ....'tweaked' alittle to make them a little clearer Regards David . Attached Images

24th February 2010, 09:29 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Ouch! Well, I didn't have high hopes on the briquet to start with, BUT the iron hilted piece...now that one I truly believed to be naval. These have been listed as such in many of the Fagan, Frederick's Swords, etc, etc... Live and learn, I guess. I'm not upset, though. As you say, Jim, the importance and fun is in the exploration. That being said, I'll probably move these through a friend of mine who collects that sort of thing. So, it's back to the search for the next mystery! Oh, forgot to thank you, David, for tweeking the pics for me. It is appreciated! Last edited by M ELEY; 25th February 2010 at 12:09 AM.

25th February 2010, 07:21 PM	#4
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	I think your swords were the priced possession of someone, who liked them well enough as to bother polishing their brass to make them look "better". As it is, all the swords of the 1816 type I have ever owned, have had a flat blade, never "wide" grooved. That by itself is interesting enough in yours. FYE: Enclosed are a few related images from my menagerie. In fact, my sword in the Horstmann hanger thread is also a type of briquette, a combination of a brass cast hilt and steel blade. Last edited by celtan; 25th February 2010 at 07:57 PM.

28th February 2010, 12:53 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Clarification please... www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=88275 www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=44410 OK, so I need some clarification on these mountaineer/artillery swords. Something is bugging me about their classification. Case in point, the above models. These two are listed as mountaineer, yet their pattern is clearly DOCUMENTED as naval in Boarders Away (pg 87) and Boarders Away 2 (pg 189), so what gives? These ribbed iron hilts remain elusive to their exac use, but the two above even have GR on their blades, which is exactly what is found on the m1803 cutlass? Didn't the m1898 Mountaineer models come much later? Did I make a mistake and truly pass up on a naval iron-hilt? ( )I know Fagan & Co and Frederick's Sword catalogs aren't well- researched volumes, but for many years, they have been listing swords like the eBay one and the above as naval? Can anyone show the Mountaineer sword as pictured in the mentioned book? Perhaps these sword-types were re-issued after the Age of Sail, just as the French M1801 had it's bowl removed and issued to ground troops later in the century? Comments please!

24th February 2010, 04:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	I think these examples are excellent for discussion as they represent two most puzzling conundrums in the world of regulation swords for other ranks and departmental or auxiliary units. In many ways they bring back great memories for me as these forms are among the first swords I ever collected many, MANY years ago!! First of all the briquet. I bought one of these when I was just a very young collector and of course to me it looked every bit like a 'pirate sword' !! Visually, these type of swords had always been associated with the many 'Howard Pyle' style images of pirates (though he even used the showy brass bowl hilts of the Civil War naval swords for effect). The one I had was with a heavy unfullered wedge type blade, with two initials in the cast brass hilt in cartouche. At that time I had no idea I was to begin a lifetime voyage in the odyssey of studying antique arms, and as was typical, my quest in trying to learn more on this old briquet carried on intermittantly for literally decades. I soon discovered that rather than being a pirate sword, or for that matter anything naval, this was an ordinary artillery sword of the early 19th century. Actually I thought it was probably British, as the first book I ever identified one in was by Wilkinson I believe, then similar entries in Blair and others. When Robson came out in 1975 ("British Military Swords" Brian Robson) he notes, "...in the early years of the 19th century ordinary artillerymen were armed with a short curved sword with straight brass knucklebow hilt, closely similar to the French infantry sword (briquet) of AnIX (1800-01) and AnXI (1802-03)". In subsequent years, I discovered that these inexpensively produced cast brass hilt other ranks swords were used by virtually every European country, as well as many others and as often quipped in talks with other collectors 'the Martians probably even had 'em!'. These seem to have come in around the end of the 18th century, and opening of the 19th, and were used until about mid century. As for my own example, I finally determined by measurements etc. and the unusual flat blade, that it was Spanish colonial with hilt origin uncertain. In the amalgamated hybrid weapons found in Mexico I even found one of these with three bar cavalry guard, briquet hilt and a shortened 18th century Spanish dragoon blade with 'Spanish motto'. With the apparantly old blade, the very blingy brass hilt and curious stamps mid blade, I might suggest this could have come out of the Bannerman empire of military surplus and antiquities of the 1930s I believe in New York. It seems they were adept at producing cast brass hilts and putting them with old blades, and the markings with some sort of inventory notation. The other sabre, is in my impression indeed a mountain artillery gunners sabre from India, but not the M1896, which is described by Robson (p.153) as one of the "..rarest of all British military patterns". Another of my early 'conquests' was one of these, with the cast ribbed hilt and stirrup hilt guard, which like this, is flatter and cast in brass. The M1896 is a much deeper profiled sheet steel guard in somewhat of a shallow bowl type shape. The mountain batteries were individual units that began in 1850 with the Hazara Mountain Train, followed by the Peshawar Mountain Train in 1853. These mountain artillery units were outstanding examples of the innovation and colorful times of Kipling in the mountain passes of the Khyber in the 19th century, and by 1889 there were 8 units. Their guns were actually mobile in that they were dismantled and loaded onto pack horses. With that I would consider this sabre relatively unique in its own right, as there cannot have been that many of these sabres in use, and it I understand correctly, they were typically carried only by havildars (sergeants). I believe there were numbers of these swords carried in various Indian units into WWII. All in all, while not even remotely naval, both of these swords might be considered unique in thier own way. If the briquet turns out to be a Bannerman product it has its own place in Americana, in the early days of militaria collecting. As for the mountain artillery sabre, it may well have begun its time in the historic passes of the Khyber and found its way into Burmese regions or other British areas where Indian regiments posted in WWII. It seems that even in the most pedestrian instances with many weapons, they always have stories to tell and as an old pirate hunter I know well that 'the treasure is in the hunt'!!! All the best, Jim

25th February 2010, 09:04 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Nice collection of hangers. I especially like the Dutch piece with the wire grip. I've noticed many of their pattern swords from the late-18th/early 19th follow a similar pattern. Similar to my Dutch marine sword.