Engravings on small sword - origin?

Richard · 16th February 2010, 07:07 AM

Hi All,

As Jim says, the talismanic/cabbalistic symbols often appear on Solingen blades of the 18th century. They often have an eastern theme, eg Turk's head, eastern tent, etc, as "the east" symbolised magic and mysticism in those supersticious times. The arm with sword emeging from a cloud has often been interpreted as the arm/sword of Allah (depictions of the face of Allah of course being blasphemous)

Richard

celtan · 16th February 2010, 11:00 AM

Thanks Richard and Jim,

That symbol always has had a certain islamic (hungarian, turkish......) feel to it, at least to me.

It sounds very logical that we incorporated and christianized that symbol, just like we once did the jihad.

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Hi All,

As Jim says, the talismanic/cabbalistic symbols often appear on Solingen blades of the 18th century. They often have an eastern theme, eg Turk's head, eastern tent, etc, as "the east" symbolised magic and mysticism in those supersticious times. The arm with sword emeging from a cloud has often been interpreted as the arm/sword of Allah (depictions of the face of Allah of course being blasphemous)

Richard

fernando · 16th February 2010, 05:44 PM

Gentlemen,
I don't have the slightest problem in bowing before the supremacy of your knowledge.
Many thanks to our esteemed "Jimpedia". After such great analizis, i wouldn't dream of considering for the slightest moment that, the assembly of these hilt and blade, were invented by the seller to better dispatch the set to a naive client

.
I have been focusing on all the symbols, trying to figure out differences and their possible interpretations.
No doubt the martial items are there: the drum is clear, some poles that could be spears or flag staffs? ... even a cannon, if i am not fanthasizing; this overlaped by the cloud armed sword. Certainly i agree with the Islamic manner of it, both because the scimitar look of the sword, as for the solution of avoiding Alah to be depicted, assuming the attributed symbolism is correct.
Worthy of note is the counterposition provided by the guys situated in top whom, judging by the wings, leave no doubt that they are angels; and for the first time i discern differences between depiction on either blade side. One angel has his mouth turned down, as if he was in a bad mood, while the other is clearly showing his teeth in a naughty smile.
Symbolic meanning or the the engraver having some fun?

Fernando

-

Jim McDougall · 16th February 2010, 06:47 PM

Thank you Richard for the supportive note and good observations on the use of this symbolic image on these blades.
Good observations Manolo, along with Richard, this symbol does seem to have an 'oriental' element to it at times, especially with the scimitar type sword. It is important to note that from the times of the crusades and into the Renaissance period, there was a distinct melding of styles and forms from the Ottomans into Eastern Europe. The adoption of exotic weapon influences by European military officers was not at all unusual, and the employing of such exotica to sword blades may or may not have had deeper symbolic associations. It is hard to imagine what may have been intended temporally by the engravers, however it is well known that a certain wry wit was often present, with certain inuendos deliberately applied. This same deeper symbolic application is well known by students of fine arts in the study of paintings, especially those of the masters.

With that being the case Fernando, its hard to say about the very astute observations you have noted, but they surely seem well placed .
As for the deliberate joining of blade to hilt for sale to a naieve collector, I think such things are always in the back of our minds. However, in this venue we are simply assessing weapons from photographic evidence, and all we can do is surmise why a weapon may seem to have incongruent elements. It is well known that weapons in thier working lives were often refurbished and repaired. There are many well established instances of heirloom blades used in more modern mount; obviously trade blades mounted in local hilt forms with ethnographic forms; use of 'exotic' weapon elements along with standard military forms such as seen in the British Raj and ceremonial or presentation weapons specially mounted.
The only way we can actually establish accurate viability in assessment is of course with hands on handlng to closely examine the weapon, otherwise here I am inclined to offer optimistic observations based on what can be seen in photos

I always hope for the best.

I think your idea about the use of the longer blade for potentially threatening situations makes sense, and as I noted, the 'fancy' hilt would not detract from the deadly viability of this blade as circumstances arose. This would have been very much the case if an officer had assumed a certain reputation as a 'duellist'. These much romaticized figures were of course very much present, so it seems feasible idea.

All very best regards,
Jim

16th February 2010, 05:44 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, I don't have the slightest problem in bowing before the supremacy of your knowledge. Many thanks to our esteemed "Jimpedia". After such great analizis, i wouldn't dream of considering for the slightest moment that, the assembly of these hilt and blade, were invented by the seller to better dispatch the set to a naive client . I have been focusing on all the symbols, trying to figure out differences and their possible interpretations. No doubt the martial items are there: the drum is clear, some poles that could be spears or flag staffs? ... even a cannon, if i am not fanthasizing; this overlaped by the cloud armed sword. Certainly i agree with the Islamic manner of it, both because the scimitar look of the sword, as for the solution of avoiding Alah to be depicted, assuming the attributed symbolism is correct. Worthy of note is the counterposition provided by the guys situated in top whom, judging by the wings, leave no doubt that they are angels; and for the first time i discern differences between depiction on either blade side. One angel has his mouth turned down, as if he was in a bad mood, while the other is clearly showing his teeth in a naughty smile. Symbolic meanning or the the engraver having some fun? Fernando - Attached Images

16th February 2010, 07:07 AM	#1
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	Hi All, As Jim says, the talismanic/cabbalistic symbols often appear on Solingen blades of the 18th century. They often have an eastern theme, eg Turk's head, eastern tent, etc, as "the east" symbolised magic and mysticism in those supersticious times. The arm with sword emeging from a cloud has often been interpreted as the arm/sword of Allah (depictions of the face of Allah of course being blasphemous) Richard

16th February 2010, 06:47 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Richard for the supportive note and good observations on the use of this symbolic image on these blades. Good observations Manolo, along with Richard, this symbol does seem to have an 'oriental' element to it at times, especially with the scimitar type sword. It is important to note that from the times of the crusades and into the Renaissance period, there was a distinct melding of styles and forms from the Ottomans into Eastern Europe. The adoption of exotic weapon influences by European military officers was not at all unusual, and the employing of such exotica to sword blades may or may not have had deeper symbolic associations. It is hard to imagine what may have been intended temporally by the engravers, however it is well known that a certain wry wit was often present, with certain inuendos deliberately applied. This same deeper symbolic application is well known by students of fine arts in the study of paintings, especially those of the masters. With that being the case Fernando, its hard to say about the very astute observations you have noted, but they surely seem well placed . As for the deliberate joining of blade to hilt for sale to a naieve collector, I think such things are always in the back of our minds. However, in this venue we are simply assessing weapons from photographic evidence, and all we can do is surmise why a weapon may seem to have incongruent elements. It is well known that weapons in thier working lives were often refurbished and repaired. There are many well established instances of heirloom blades used in more modern mount; obviously trade blades mounted in local hilt forms with ethnographic forms; use of 'exotic' weapon elements along with standard military forms such as seen in the British Raj and ceremonial or presentation weapons specially mounted. The only way we can actually establish accurate viability in assessment is of course with hands on handlng to closely examine the weapon, otherwise here I am inclined to offer optimistic observations based on what can be seen in photos I always hope for the best. I think your idea about the use of the longer blade for potentially threatening situations makes sense, and as I noted, the 'fancy' hilt would not detract from the deadly viability of this blade as circumstances arose. This would have been very much the case if an officer had assumed a certain reputation as a 'duellist'. These much romaticized figures were of course very much present, so it seems feasible idea. All very best regards, Jim