Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 08:44 AM

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Hi Mark,
Clearly the 'Sonoran' attribution is broadly placed, and is strictly my own opinion based on the years I have viewed many espada anchas. As with most ethnographic items, it is hard to place regional affinities, but for me, the rattlesnake metaphor comes most likely from the Mexican Republic period just after the 1821 independance from Spain. The standard form hilt and heavy forged blade resembles those of the period from most of the border areas and perhaps even as far as west Texas, of course exceeding my Sonoran suggestion.
As you know, there is no strict delineation on what swords may have gone to sea....though I think zweihanders and claymores were likely exempt !

This remains to me a very intriguing frontier Mexican sword probably with some very interesting possibilities, but I honestly doubt it saw the 'Main'.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 10:31 PM

I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo

) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.

12th February 2010, 08:44 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass- ). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me. Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear , but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more... Last edited by M ELEY; 12th February 2010 at 09:56 AM.

12th February 2010, 10:31 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,207	I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo ) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.