Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 01:42 AM

Hi Mark,
I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it.
Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly.

All the best,
Jim

kisak · 9th February 2010, 01:25 PM

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

M ELEY · 9th February 2010, 03:55 PM

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

Atlantia · 9th February 2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

M ELEY · 10th February 2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

Gene, I like the way you think-

I will try to get the seller to send me another pic of the sword (no, not an eBay auction for a change!). Anyway, the guard made me feel that this piece would be more early 19th vs later Mexican piece. I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it. I'd like to think that this sword might by some stretch of the imagination have seen sea service, but the southwest elements are unmistakable. Then again, the seller is reporting the grip as horn and does resemble it's Euro hanger counterparts, so still too hard to say. Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone...

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 05:38 AM

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

Dmitry · 11th February 2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

celtan · 11th February 2010, 11:28 AM

Hi Eley,

Depends on what you mean by a cup-hilt. The real cuphilts saw the peak of their popularity in the 1650s, and kept on being used and made until the very early 18th C (~1710).

The smallsword began its ascendancy in the 1680s, and in fact some arrived to America in the 1670-80s. By 1710 they were already in ascendancy over the cuphilt.

Some cuphilts survived in the dry american south-west longer and were used until much later, but their use was vestigial, as the colonists would use anything they could get their hands on.

If you are including the bivalve-guards or clamshells, such as the spanish M1728 and the later M1788 and M1796-1800 as cuphilts, then indeed they saw use until the very early Napoleonic Wars, mainly in cavalry units. In fact, their hexagonal or "a tres mesas" blades kept being reused until even after the American Civil War.

OTOH, the spanish bivalve M1728, the boat-sail M1788 (a la vela) and the M1796-1800 dragoneras were not realy cup-hilts.

Best regards

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it.

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 01:02 PM

Hello Manolo and thanks for replying.
Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

Hi Kisak,
Excellent assessment!!! With the presumed Spanish colonial character of this sword at this point, that is a perfect analogy, as the frontier espada anchas were essentially utilitarian much as the hirshfangers were intended. These frontier hangers actually are believed to have developed from European hunting hangers of the 17th century.
With the use of the hirschfangers or 'hunting swords' becoming more stylish and used as 'riding swords' in thier use, of course by the gentry and nobility, they became closely associated in some styling with courtly smallswords.....and this might well be perceived as a frontier 'hirschfanger' or hunting hanger of early Mexico.... or at least pending further identification.

All the best,
Jim

9th February 2010, 01:42 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Hi Mark, I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it. Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly. All the best, Jim

9th February 2010, 01:25 PM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

9th February 2010, 03:55 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

11th February 2010, 05:38 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77 http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria Again, love this catalog and stuff.

11th February 2010, 01:02 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Manolo and thanks for replying. Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.