Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

TVV · 23rd May 2005, 08:06 PM

Great points, Erlikhan. However, there were Christians who were permitted to carry weapons, for example some Christians occupying minor administrative positions, such as being in charge of high mountain passes, etc. Also, even before the 19th century there were quite a lot of outlaws in the Balkans, some of them Muslims and deserters from the Turkish army, and some were Christians. The latter are sometimes romanticized as rebels but the truth is the great majority of them had no nationalistic or revolutionary sentiments and took up arms with plundering as their sole motivation and attacked Muslims and Christians indiscriminately. There were also a number of small unsuccessful rebelions and uprisals, whose participants used a variety of weapons.
When talking about Bulgarian types and variations of edged weapons I am not trying to separate them into Christian and Muslim examples, on the contrary, I believe the same weapon types were used by both Christians and Muslims, which can be evidenced by photographs of Bulgarian haiduts and revolutionaries, posing with kilidjes and yataghans. What I was trying to state in the begining of this thread was that in the lands that are now Bulgaria the edged weapons looked a bit different to the ones in Anataolia, who looked different from the ones in Greece, etc. There were local preferences in design and decoration, and there were perhaps one or two weapon types that are found in this region only, such as the mystery wepons from the start of this thread. And even those may not be Christian at all.

erlikhan · 25th May 2005, 10:57 AM

I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.

Yannis · 25th May 2005, 09:07 PM

I have to add that these kamas are very similar to greek ones of north Greece. They were used from guerilla fighters of greek Macedonia before the liberation of 1913.

TVV · 25th May 2005, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.

The Pomaks are not famous for military exploits. However, there were quite a lot of Turks in Nortehrn Bulgaria, who often joined the Ottoman army as irregulars and they certainly carried a huge amount of edged weapons of all sorts. Those were Turks who lived in Northern Bulgaria for a few centuries and probably they had their own style preferences.

Yannis: it is hard to see from the photo much as of the style of the kindjal's hilt. It appears a bit bigger then the ones more typical of Bulgaria, and this style of small qamas was characteristic for Central Bulgaria, and my current research shows that it became popular only after 1878. It is very likely that some made their way into Macedonia though, as the VMORO fighters equipped themselves with all sorts of weapons, pretty much everything they could get their hands on. Maybe after his visit to Skopije, Erlikhan will tell us about what he found out about the edged weapons in this part of the Balkans.

Yannis · 26th May 2005, 07:03 AM

I wrote similar, not the same. I will post photos soon. And I am not talking about VMORO but the greek guerillas like the man in the photo Ioannis Martzios

TVV · 27th May 2005, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

I wrote similar, not the same. I will post photos soon. And I am not talking about VMORO but the greek guerillas like the man in the photo Ioannis Martzios

I am sorry, I probably misunderstood your post as the thread is dedicated to weapons from the lands that were once ethnically Bulgarian, which is obviously not the case with the photo you posted as it is from a different, although close, geographic area. My fault.
But you are right: similarities are sure to exist, and since I love edged weapons from the Balkans, I will appreciate it when you are able to post pictures of similar daggers.

Rivkin · 27th May 2005, 04:47 AM

I'm really surprised to see such "caucasian" models being worn by greeks, bolgarians and other balkan nationals.
The reason being that I don't remember straight kindjals being popular among ottoman forces, I always thought they actually started to appear more towards the end of XIX century (there are probably 6 million circassians in Turkey today, so this is being one of the most important reasons).

I'm also surprized to read that circassians left an imprint on bolgarian society - I always thought that anti-circassian feelings were prevalent among balkan nations.

Are there any shashkas in Bolgaria ?

TVV · 27th May 2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

I'm really surprised to see such "caucasian" models being worn by greeks, bolgarians and other balkan nationals.
The reason being that I don't remember straight kindjals being popular among ottoman forces, I always thought they actually started to appear more towards the end of XIX century (there are probably 6 million circassians in Turkey today, so this is being one of the most important reasons).

I'm also surprized to read that circassians left an imprint on bolgarian society - I always thought that anti-circassian feelings were prevalent among balkan nations.

Are there any shashkas in Bolgaria ?

Rivkin, you are right in believing that Circassians were not welcomed by Bulgarians in a period of rising nationalism and liberation struggles, as they were brought to the Balkans to strengthen Ottoman authority, and they indeed acted as irregulars in the Ottoman army. However, Bulgarians in those times were fond of Cossacks, whom they associated with the Russians, and at the end it was Russia that brought liberation to Bulgaria after almost five centuries under the Ottomans. Therefore, kindjals and qamas may have not necessarily been associated with the Circassians only, but with the Cossacks too.
I also think that Christian outlaws and revolutionaries did not care that much about the origin of their weapons, as I have seen pictures of Bulgarian revolutionaries with kilidjes, yataghans and kindjals. As weapons were not that easy to obtain even for the ones residing outside of the Ottoman Empire, in Wallachia for example, I guess any good weapon would be used by them.
As far as shashkas, there are shashkas in Bulgaria, but not so many of Caucasus origin. They came into Bulgaria mainly through Bulgarian revolutionaries who excaped to Russia and lived and/or studied there. Some came with the Cossack regiments during the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78. In the years immediately following the liberation there were many Russian officers stationed in Bulgaria, as the young Bulgarian state did not have its own officers. In the war of 1885 with Serbia, there was no official sword pattern in Bulgaria and Bulgarian officers and cavalry used the Russian shashka patterns. Many shashkas, mainly of the dragoon pattern were captured during WWI in the Eastern theater. As a result, there are plenty of shashkas in Bulgaria, but most of them are military issue ones, and not so many are what we would consider ethnographic.

25th May 2005, 09:07 PM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I have to add that these kamas are very similar to greek ones of north Greece. They were used from guerilla fighters of greek Macedonia before the liberation of 1913. Attached Images

23rd May 2005, 08:06 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Great points, Erlikhan. However, there were Christians who were permitted to carry weapons, for example some Christians occupying minor administrative positions, such as being in charge of high mountain passes, etc. Also, even before the 19th century there were quite a lot of outlaws in the Balkans, some of them Muslims and deserters from the Turkish army, and some were Christians. The latter are sometimes romanticized as rebels but the truth is the great majority of them had no nationalistic or revolutionary sentiments and took up arms with plundering as their sole motivation and attacked Muslims and Christians indiscriminately. There were also a number of small unsuccessful rebelions and uprisals, whose participants used a variety of weapons. When talking about Bulgarian types and variations of edged weapons I am not trying to separate them into Christian and Muslim examples, on the contrary, I believe the same weapon types were used by both Christians and Muslims, which can be evidenced by photographs of Bulgarian haiduts and revolutionaries, posing with kilidjes and yataghans. What I was trying to state in the begining of this thread was that in the lands that are now Bulgaria the edged weapons looked a bit different to the ones in Anataolia, who looked different from the ones in Greece, etc. There were local preferences in design and decoration, and there were perhaps one or two weapon types that are found in this region only, such as the mystery wepons from the start of this thread. And even those may not be Christian at all.

25th May 2005, 10:57 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. Do you think geographical differences of weapons from Bulgaria carry some signs or characteristics coming from pre Ottoman local styles? just as an idea, there are Pomaks in Bulgaria. Moslem Bulgars as far as I know? I dont know if they used to be efficient in military, but they should carry arms much more freely and perhaps could continue some kind of native Bulgar style, not? If they have own tribal weapon models, could be interesting to examine them.

26th May 2005, 07:03 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I wrote similar, not the same. I will post photos soon. And I am not talking about VMORO but the greek guerillas like the man in the photo Ioannis Martzios

27th May 2005, 04:47 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm really surprised to see such "caucasian" models being worn by greeks, bolgarians and other balkan nationals. The reason being that I don't remember straight kindjals being popular among ottoman forces, I always thought they actually started to appear more towards the end of XIX century (there are probably 6 million circassians in Turkey today, so this is being one of the most important reasons). I'm also surprized to read that circassians left an imprint on bolgarian society - I always thought that anti-circassian feelings were prevalent among balkan nations. Are there any shashkas in Bolgaria ?