The visible part of gonjo when Keris sheathed

Sajen · 30th January 2010, 12:29 PM

Hello Kai Wee,

very nice keris you have shown there for explanation. But isn't the first keris you declare as Sumatran not with a Peninsula handle?

Detlef

BluErf · 30th January 2010, 12:53 PM

Hi Detlef,

That probably is a Riau jawa demam (I got it on a Riau Bugis blade). The S. Peninsula and Riau forms are very similar as the area was effectively under the Johore-Riau Sultanate for a period.

BluErf · 30th January 2010, 12:56 PM

I have a Lombok keris pedang with a ganja that sticks just a little bit above the sheath. Looking at the sheath, I thought it was the original sheath.

The black and white photo here shows the ganja parallel with the top of the wrangka. Perhaps it was intentional? Perhaps some fellow collectors from Bali/Lombok can help clarify?

Gustav · 30th January 2010, 02:10 PM

Yes, I also have a keris from Lombok, with an older carefully made sarung of not bad quality, which also sticks a little bit (like on the picture) out of the sheath.

I also hope, somebody can clarify this.

Naga Sasra · 30th January 2010, 03:56 PM

Although I am not from Bali/Lombok I checked Djelenga's book for this issue, by far the large majority of the pieces are flush with the top of the sheath.

Also of the 29 pieces from Bali/Lombok in my own collection currently, all but two are flush with the top of the sheath.

Wood shrinkage over time and or poor fitting of the blade into the sheath, this is most likely the cause of the blades gonjo sticking a little bit above the sheath.

As for the Black and White photo, this photo was staged so who knows what the intention were.

Sajen · 30th January 2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Detlef,

That probably is a Riau jawa demam (I got it on a Riau Bugis blade). The S. Peninsula and Riau forms are very similar as the area was effectively under the Johore-Riau Sultanate for a period.

Thank you for clarification!

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2010, 09:45 AM

Until March of 2009 I had been of the opinion that Balinese blades were always fitted so that the top of the gonjo was dead level with the top of the wrongko.

In March I was told by a tukang wrongko in Bali, a man of very advanced years, that many of the old wrongkos were made so that the ganja did not completely enter. He had several examples of older keris that bore out what he had told me.

Back in the 1960's I bought a lot of Bali and Lombok keris from an antique dealer in Sydney, whose son was living in Bali running sailing tours around the islands. This son was sending antiques including keris back to his father. I bought most of the keris that he sent back to his father. These keris were in disgusting condition and required complete restoration. I recall that many of them had blades that sat proud of the top of the wrongko. I assumed that these blades were non-original to the wrongkos and in restoration I fitted them neatly to the wrongko.

In retrospect I believe that I erred in doing this and that those blades were fitted in the old fashion, with the ganja sitting proud of the wrongko.

David · 31st January 2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Until March of 2009 I had been of the opinion that Balinese blades were always fitted so that the top of the gonjo was dead level with the top of the wrongko.

In March I was told by a tukang wrongko in Bali, a man of very advanced years, that many of the old wrongkos were made so that the ganja did not completely enter. He had several examples of older keris that bore out what he had told me.

Back in the 1960's I bought a lot of Bali and Lombok keris from an antique dealer in Sydney, whose son was living in Bali running sailing tours around the islands. This son was sending antiques including keris back to his father. I bought most of the keris that he sent back to his father. These keris were in disgusting condition and required complete restoration. I recall that many of them had blades that sat proud of the top of the wrongko. I assumed that these blades were non-original to the wrongkos and in restoration I fitted them neatly to the wrongko.

In retrospect I believe that I erred in doing this and that those blades were fitted in the old fashion, with the ganja sitting proud of the wrongko.

Thanks Alan, interesting information...

sipakatuo · 31st January 2010, 03:47 PM

Dear Gustav

This is my opnion and to the extend of my limited knowledge.
Speaking about setting of Ganja (Kancing in Bugis term) I saw many style of them in my home town Sulawesi. So it is difficult to say which one is the right setting. Plenty of them just flat, when I say flat means a level with the mouth of warangka, some even slightly sank into the warangka, few shown the upper level or buntut cicak. Through my research in Sulawesi I found no philosophy, reference, or whatsoever about this issue or the knowledge about it has been buried. So I believe it is just a matter of our own preference. The high setting of buntut cicak could be just to make it attractive.

However, I know that in Malaysia dan Singapore they have other opinion about this issue.

Speaking about the setting of gonjo, here I want to share my family's heirlooms and they are as originals as you can see.

Btw, I am just a collector not a dealer or runner. I am here to exchange opinion with you and the rest of members. No point of getting famous or to be acknowledge by everyone. I believe if you have brain and want to be someone then you need to make a book and let other people judge you, by then you can measure your knowledge!. Just read previous threads about the need to claim own identity. My full name is quite long so just call me Andi or Irvan and I live in Jakarta. Thanks and have a nice weekend to everyone.

Gustav · 31st January 2010, 06:53 PM

Alan, Andi, Blu Erf, I am obliged to many thanks for the very interesting information and beautiful pictures.

Dear Andi, I agree completely with you. If a person has gained some remarkable level of knowledge and understanding in an area, it is almost a duty to write a work or to have pupils.

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2010, 09:15 PM

Sipakatuo and Gustav, you have both expressed the opinion that a person who has knowledge should publish that knowledge.

If I were to accept your opinions as valid, I could consider that I am in a position where I do have a level of knowledge that could justify the publication of a book. However, I disagree completely this opinion.

I can mount a number of arguments against this opinion, but I'm not going to hijack this thread by running in a completely different direction, so I will limit my comments.

Firstly, there is the economic argument:-

producing a book, or any kind of writing is work, uses time; if we put time into writing, it must come from somewhere else, and if we need to use time to produce income, the time spent on writing reduces income; once the book has been written, it then needs to be published, and finding a publisher for anything other than a book that will return a profit on sales is a futile search.

In purely economic terms, the production of a book dealing with anything other than the most popularist aspects of the keris is a losing proposition.

It may be possible to defend the production of a book on the keris if that book deals with aspects of the keris that will attract a broad and not necessarily specialist readership, however, books of this nature have been done to the point of being overdone. They may return a dollar profit, but they do not return much profit in the form of knowledge.

Secondly there is the philosophical question of the morality of providing open access to all information in respect of the keris to anybody who can open a book.

I am of the opinion that all knowledge is not public property, and too much knowledge can in some instances be damaging to all concerned.

The level of knowledge to which one is entitled can be gauged by the questioning of the seeker after knowledge:- when the correct questions are asked, the correct knowledge will flow.

If this knowledge were to be given before the question were to be asked, the giving of the knowledge would be tantamount to the sowing of seeds in a barren field.

Thirdly, there is the motivation in production of a book.

I know of cases where a book has been produced for no other reason than to promote sales for the writer, and in the case of one very well known writer, deliberately incorrect, or inadequate information was provided in that book, in order to protect his own livilihood. When I pointed this out to the writer, his reply was:- "you don't need to tell the whole world everything; show them the door, but don't give them the key, they'll find the key themselves if they deserve to".

I know of other cases where a book has been written, sometimes with the backing of a wealthy benefactor, and for declared altruistic reasons, for the sole purpose of marketing a collection that was subsequently sold.

Then there are the cases, more than a few when we consider the keris, where a book, or books have been produced and privately published simply to feed the ego of the writer and to raise that writer's percieved level of expertise in the eyes of those who do not yet understand sufficient to differentiate between true knowledge and the appearance of knowledge.

If we desire knowledge, we should be prepared to seek that knowledge, not hope that it will be dropped into our laps when we open a book.

BluErf · 3rd February 2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sipakatuo

Dear Gustav

This is my opnion and to the extend of my limited knowledge.
Speaking about setting of Ganja (Kancing in Bugis term) I saw many style of them in my home town Sulawesi. So it is difficult to say which one is the right setting. Plenty of them just flat, when I say flat means a level with the mouth of warangka, some even slightly sank into the warangka, few shown the upper level or buntut cicak. Through my research in Sulawesi I found no philosophy, reference, or whatsoever about this issue or the knowledge about it has been buried. So I believe it is just a matter of our own preference. The high setting of buntut cicak could be just to make it attractive.

However, I know that in Malaysia dan Singapore they have other opinion about this issue.

Speaking about the setting of gonjo, here I want to share my family's heirlooms and they are as originals as you can see.

Btw, I am just a collector not a dealer or runner. I am here to exchange opinion with you and the rest of members. No point of getting famous or to be acknowledge by everyone. I believe if you have brain and want to be someone then you need to make a book and let other people judge you, by then you can measure your knowledge!. Just read previous threads about the need to claim own identity. My full name is quite long so just call me Andi or Irvan and I live in Jakarta. Thanks and have a nice weekend to everyone.

Hi Sipakatuo,

Thanks for sharing your family heirlooms. Could I enquire if the toli-toli were attached in recent times? The reason for my asking is that the rope do look pretty modern, especially the pink one. What is the reason for attaching the toli-toli? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai Wee

sipakatuo · 6th February 2010, 11:23 AM

Hai Kai Wee

It is not Toli-Toli, it is called Passiosumange or Passingkerrusumange. There is a difference between Toli-Toli and Passingkerrusumange. Toli-Toli in Bugis means Ear Ring and you can commonly find this object attached in Wanua (Warangka) of Badik or sometimes in Tappi (Keris) too. Passingkerrusumange is the loop itself. It means 'Pengikat Semangat' or knot of spirit. You are correct, the loop here is new because the old one was damaged and so I have to replace it. Passingkerrusumange is also representing a status, in the old days before they wrap this loop around the Wanua, they must spell a mantra. The purpose is to give this loop a spirit (semangat). So whenever we travel along with this Tappi it can give us a 'sign' before bad things happen at home. This is just a belief and culture of the Buginesse in the old days.
There is actually other purpose of it and maybe next time...

Andi Irvan

31st January 2010, 03:47 PM	#9
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	Dear Gustav This is my opnion and to the extend of my limited knowledge. Speaking about setting of Ganja (Kancing in Bugis term) I saw many style of them in my home town Sulawesi. So it is difficult to say which one is the right setting. Plenty of them just flat, when I say flat means a level with the mouth of warangka, some even slightly sank into the warangka, few shown the upper level or buntut cicak. Through my research in Sulawesi I found no philosophy, reference, or whatsoever about this issue or the knowledge about it has been buried. So I believe it is just a matter of our own preference. The high setting of buntut cicak could be just to make it attractive. However, I know that in Malaysia dan Singapore they have other opinion about this issue. Speaking about the setting of gonjo, here I want to share my family's heirlooms and they are as originals as you can see. Btw, I am just a collector not a dealer or runner. I am here to exchange opinion with you and the rest of members. No point of getting famous or to be acknowledge by everyone. I believe if you have brain and want to be someone then you need to make a book and let other people judge you, by then you can measure your knowledge!. Just read previous threads about the need to claim own identity. My full name is quite long so just call me Andi or Irvan and I live in Jakarta. Thanks and have a nice weekend to everyone. Attached Images

31st January 2010, 06:53 PM	#10
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Alan, Andi, Blu Erf, I am obliged to many thanks for the very interesting information and beautiful pictures. Dear Andi, I agree completely with you. If a person has gained some remarkable level of knowledge and understanding in an area, it is almost a duty to write a work or to have pupils. Last edited by Gustav; 31st January 2010 at 07:34 PM.

30th January 2010, 12:29 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	Hello Kai Wee, very nice keris you have shown there for explanation. But isn't the first keris you declare as Sumatran not with a Peninsula handle? Detlef

30th January 2010, 12:53 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Detlef, That probably is a Riau jawa demam (I got it on a Riau Bugis blade). The S. Peninsula and Riau forms are very similar as the area was effectively under the Johore-Riau Sultanate for a period.

30th January 2010, 12:56 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I have a Lombok keris pedang with a ganja that sticks just a little bit above the sheath. Looking at the sheath, I thought it was the original sheath. The black and white photo here shows the ganja parallel with the top of the wrangka. Perhaps it was intentional? Perhaps some fellow collectors from Bali/Lombok can help clarify?

30th January 2010, 02:10 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Yes, I also have a keris from Lombok, with an older carefully made sarung of not bad quality, which also sticks a little bit (like on the picture) out of the sheath. I also hope, somebody can clarify this.

30th January 2010, 03:56 PM	#5
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Although I am not from Bali/Lombok I checked Djelenga's book for this issue, by far the large majority of the pieces are flush with the top of the sheath. Also of the 29 pieces from Bali/Lombok in my own collection currently, all but two are flush with the top of the sheath. Wood shrinkage over time and or poor fitting of the blade into the sheath, this is most likely the cause of the blades gonjo sticking a little bit above the sheath. As for the Black and White photo, this photo was staged so who knows what the intention were.

31st January 2010, 09:45 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Until March of 2009 I had been of the opinion that Balinese blades were always fitted so that the top of the gonjo was dead level with the top of the wrongko. In March I was told by a tukang wrongko in Bali, a man of very advanced years, that many of the old wrongkos were made so that the ganja did not completely enter. He had several examples of older keris that bore out what he had told me. Back in the 1960's I bought a lot of Bali and Lombok keris from an antique dealer in Sydney, whose son was living in Bali running sailing tours around the islands. This son was sending antiques including keris back to his father. I bought most of the keris that he sent back to his father. These keris were in disgusting condition and required complete restoration. I recall that many of them had blades that sat proud of the top of the wrongko. I assumed that these blades were non-original to the wrongkos and in restoration I fitted them neatly to the wrongko. In retrospect I believe that I erred in doing this and that those blades were fitted in the old fashion, with the ganja sitting proud of the wrongko.

31st January 2010, 09:15 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Sipakatuo and Gustav, you have both expressed the opinion that a person who has knowledge should publish that knowledge. If I were to accept your opinions as valid, I could consider that I am in a position where I do have a level of knowledge that could justify the publication of a book. However, I disagree completely this opinion. I can mount a number of arguments against this opinion, but I'm not going to hijack this thread by running in a completely different direction, so I will limit my comments. Firstly, there is the economic argument:- producing a book, or any kind of writing is work, uses time; if we put time into writing, it must come from somewhere else, and if we need to use time to produce income, the time spent on writing reduces income; once the book has been written, it then needs to be published, and finding a publisher for anything other than a book that will return a profit on sales is a futile search. In purely economic terms, the production of a book dealing with anything other than the most popularist aspects of the keris is a losing proposition. It may be possible to defend the production of a book on the keris if that book deals with aspects of the keris that will attract a broad and not necessarily specialist readership, however, books of this nature have been done to the point of being overdone. They may return a dollar profit, but they do not return much profit in the form of knowledge. Secondly there is the philosophical question of the morality of providing open access to all information in respect of the keris to anybody who can open a book. I am of the opinion that all knowledge is not public property, and too much knowledge can in some instances be damaging to all concerned. The level of knowledge to which one is entitled can be gauged by the questioning of the seeker after knowledge:- when the correct questions are asked, the correct knowledge will flow. If this knowledge were to be given before the question were to be asked, the giving of the knowledge would be tantamount to the sowing of seeds in a barren field. Thirdly, there is the motivation in production of a book. I know of cases where a book has been produced for no other reason than to promote sales for the writer, and in the case of one very well known writer, deliberately incorrect, or inadequate information was provided in that book, in order to protect his own livilihood. When I pointed this out to the writer, his reply was:- "you don't need to tell the whole world everything; show them the door, but don't give them the key, they'll find the key themselves if they deserve to". I know of other cases where a book has been written, sometimes with the backing of a wealthy benefactor, and for declared altruistic reasons, for the sole purpose of marketing a collection that was subsequently sold. Then there are the cases, more than a few when we consider the keris, where a book, or books have been produced and privately published simply to feed the ego of the writer and to raise that writer's percieved level of expertise in the eyes of those who do not yet understand sufficient to differentiate between true knowledge and the appearance of knowledge. If we desire knowledge, we should be prepared to seek that knowledge, not hope that it will be dropped into our laps when we open a book.

6th February 2010, 11:23 AM	#13
sipakatuo Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 59	Hai Kai Wee It is not Toli-Toli, it is called Passiosumange or Passingkerrusumange. There is a difference between Toli-Toli and Passingkerrusumange. Toli-Toli in Bugis means Ear Ring and you can commonly find this object attached in Wanua (Warangka) of Badik or sometimes in Tappi (Keris) too. Passingkerrusumange is the loop itself. It means 'Pengikat Semangat' or knot of spirit. You are correct, the loop here is new because the old one was damaged and so I have to replace it. Passingkerrusumange is also representing a status, in the old days before they wrap this loop around the Wanua, they must spell a mantra. The purpose is to give this loop a spirit (semangat). So whenever we travel along with this Tappi it can give us a 'sign' before bad things happen at home. This is just a belief and culture of the Buginesse in the old days. There is actually other purpose of it and maybe next time... Andi Irvan