Question Re: Sheffield/Birmingham/Edinburgh maker's marks

laEspadaAncha · 30th January 2010, 08:00 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you once again for the detailed response and for the referral to Bezdek. My reference library is very limited, though I have just enough material on American edged weapons that I've never purchased any of Bezdek's work... this might be the push I need to acquire one of his books.

There was a gentleman in Boston I corresponded with for a while back in 2005-2006 who had the most complete private collection of Scottish basket-hilted broadswords and dirks I have ever seen. At the time, he helped me date the maker of a BHBS I have that is marked to the Black Watch. Unfortunately, I have since experienced a computer crash and no longer have his contact information (score one for the pen-and-paper variety of address books).

With regards to the four-stamp hallmarks, in your experience have you ever seen examples of (non-silver mounted) edged weapons that made use of the same date stamps?

Hopefully your "call to arms" will result in some additional feedback that can help me identify the maker.

Best Regards,

Chris

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2010, 12:17 PM

Hi Chris,
I must note that I havent really had Mr. Bezdek's work in my references either until recently when I got his book on German swords and makers. He presents very detailed work in a compendium fashion, which really can help a great deal in specific searches, pretty much straight to the point.

Regarding basket hilts, in the same regard, a number of years ago Dr. Cyril Mazansky put together a brilliant typology of British basket hilts, which includes 'mortuaries' and some of the other variants along with of course, the famed basket hilts. Up to this point, one of the most relied on sources was the concise work of the late Anthony Darling in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7,#3, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword".
It seems that I was once told as a rule of thumb, the true Scottish basket hilt was a broadsword, that is with double edged blades, while backsword or single edge blades were characteristically English. Naturally this axiom must be regarded in its very general perspective.

With the advent of basket hilts in English cavalry units, and the subsequent raising of Scottish contingents at the beginning of the 18th century, the backsword blades became prevalent. There were of course joinings of many true Scottish basket hilts, however English makers began producing thier own versions as these type swords became a standard with dragoons through the 18th century.

"Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows" , by The National Trust of Scotland presents colorful overview and beautifully presented historical material with interesting views on some weapons.
In "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800" edited by David Caldwell, Claude Blair presents his brilliant historical work on the basket hilt, which deals with the development of these swords in Britain in intriguing detail.
There is of course av wealth of material on lochaber axes and other topics as well.

While Im sure you're well aware of these, I just added some bibliography here mostly for readers benefit, as weapons such as what you have shared with this dirk tend to pique interest in the field.

The venerable work by Charles Whitelaw is always a great cornerstone to have on hand and was a seminal work in the field, "Scottish Arms Makers" is the title and pretty hard to find, I would imagine Bezdek has largely added to this in his work.

David Caldwell also put together a great monograph, "The Scottish Armoury" published in Edinburgh in 1979, but no detail on makers, markings etc, mostly a historical overview.

One of the benchmark references has always been the treasured little monograph "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970) a small but powerful resource.

Regarding the markings, although I have spent many years researching markings on sword blades, I honestly cannot say I know much on the hallmarks used by silversmiths, except that they were in groupings of usually four carrying data for compliance. I have long suspected that makers marks on blades that appear in multiples might have been a reflection associating with the hallmark practice to enhance suggestion of quality.

It has long been established that spurious markings on trade blades through the centuries have created a puzzling maelstrom in trying to accurately attribute them. Hallmarks were a much more stringently recorded matter as they concerned precious metal and compliance with guilds, while it seems that bladesmiths and particularly knife and tool makers became less regulated with the advent of industrialization.

The use of the anvil would seem a most likely touchmark for a bladesmith, however I have not found a resource as yet that provides catalogued detail on these. I can only assume that the letter in cartouche above this mark must be applied in the sense of a year date as you have suggested, and I look forward to anyone out there responding with more information to help us out.

Thank you again for posting this beautiful dirk, and please post any of the swords you have noted as I'd like to see some basket hilt discussion develop here as well.

All the best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 30th January 2010, 04:38 PM

Good Morning Jim,

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts - as well as the suggested references for Scottish weaponry - thank you for both. Truth be told, the only detailed work I've acquired is focused on American patterned swords, as the ethnographic content of my collection (I consider my Scottish and Spanish items to be "ethnographic" as well, I guess

) is collected primarily for representation of form - thus my "collection" (if you could call it that) runs wide, but not necessarily deep in representation. The one exception to this rule is American military pattern swords, though my wife has wizened up to the "honestly baby, that was always here" trick, so I am forced to add new swords smartly these days...

If I can find a photo of the BHBS, I'll definitely post it... if not, I guess I'll have to take one then!

Best Regards,

Chris

30th January 2010, 08:00 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Jim, Thank you once again for the detailed response and for the referral to Bezdek. My reference library is very limited, though I have just enough material on American edged weapons that I've never purchased any of Bezdek's work... this might be the push I need to acquire one of his books. There was a gentleman in Boston I corresponded with for a while back in 2005-2006 who had the most complete private collection of Scottish basket-hilted broadswords and dirks I have ever seen. At the time, he helped me date the maker of a BHBS I have that is marked to the Black Watch. Unfortunately, I have since experienced a computer crash and no longer have his contact information (score one for the pen-and-paper variety of address books). With regards to the four-stamp hallmarks, in your experience have you ever seen examples of (non-silver mounted) edged weapons that made use of the same date stamps? Hopefully your "call to arms" will result in some additional feedback that can help me identify the maker. Best Regards, Chris

30th January 2010, 12:17 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,296	Hi Chris, I must note that I havent really had Mr. Bezdek's work in my references either until recently when I got his book on German swords and makers. He presents very detailed work in a compendium fashion, which really can help a great deal in specific searches, pretty much straight to the point. Regarding basket hilts, in the same regard, a number of years ago Dr. Cyril Mazansky put together a brilliant typology of British basket hilts, which includes 'mortuaries' and some of the other variants along with of course, the famed basket hilts. Up to this point, one of the most relied on sources was the concise work of the late Anthony Darling in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7,#3, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword". It seems that I was once told as a rule of thumb, the true Scottish basket hilt was a broadsword, that is with double edged blades, while backsword or single edge blades were characteristically English. Naturally this axiom must be regarded in its very general perspective. With the advent of basket hilts in English cavalry units, and the subsequent raising of Scottish contingents at the beginning of the 18th century, the backsword blades became prevalent. There were of course joinings of many true Scottish basket hilts, however English makers began producing thier own versions as these type swords became a standard with dragoons through the 18th century. "Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows" , by The National Trust of Scotland presents colorful overview and beautifully presented historical material with interesting views on some weapons. In "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800" edited by David Caldwell, Claude Blair presents his brilliant historical work on the basket hilt, which deals with the development of these swords in Britain in intriguing detail. There is of course av wealth of material on lochaber axes and other topics as well. While Im sure you're well aware of these, I just added some bibliography here mostly for readers benefit, as weapons such as what you have shared with this dirk tend to pique interest in the field. The venerable work by Charles Whitelaw is always a great cornerstone to have on hand and was a seminal work in the field, "Scottish Arms Makers" is the title and pretty hard to find, I would imagine Bezdek has largely added to this in his work. David Caldwell also put together a great monograph, "The Scottish Armoury" published in Edinburgh in 1979, but no detail on makers, markings etc, mostly a historical overview. One of the benchmark references has always been the treasured little monograph "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970) a small but powerful resource. Regarding the markings, although I have spent many years researching markings on sword blades, I honestly cannot say I know much on the hallmarks used by silversmiths, except that they were in groupings of usually four carrying data for compliance. I have long suspected that makers marks on blades that appear in multiples might have been a reflection associating with the hallmark practice to enhance suggestion of quality. It has long been established that spurious markings on trade blades through the centuries have created a puzzling maelstrom in trying to accurately attribute them. Hallmarks were a much more stringently recorded matter as they concerned precious metal and compliance with guilds, while it seems that bladesmiths and particularly knife and tool makers became less regulated with the advent of industrialization. The use of the anvil would seem a most likely touchmark for a bladesmith, however I have not found a resource as yet that provides catalogued detail on these. I can only assume that the letter in cartouche above this mark must be applied in the sense of a year date as you have suggested, and I look forward to anyone out there responding with more information to help us out. Thank you again for posting this beautiful dirk, and please post any of the swords you have noted as I'd like to see some basket hilt discussion develop here as well. All the best, Jim

30th January 2010, 04:38 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Good Morning Jim, Once again, I appreciate your thoughts - as well as the suggested references for Scottish weaponry - thank you for both. Truth be told, the only detailed work I've acquired is focused on American patterned swords, as the ethnographic content of my collection (I consider my Scottish and Spanish items to be "ethnographic" as well, I guess ) is collected primarily for representation of form - thus my "collection" (if you could call it that) runs wide, but not necessarily deep in representation. The one exception to this rule is American military pattern swords, though my wife has wizened up to the "honestly baby, that was always here" trick, so I am forced to add new swords smartly these days... If I can find a photo of the BHBS, I'll definitely post it... if not, I guess I'll have to take one then! Best Regards, Chris