Did I Make a BIG Mistake?

kahnjar1 · 26th January 2010, 01:06 AM

Hi Robert. Interesting swords. The VOC is the symbal of the Dutch East India Company, in the Dutch = Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie. Other than that I'm sorry I know nothing of the swords themselves, but IF they are what they appear to be, then I would say you got a bargain!
Regards Stuart

Robert · 26th January 2010, 01:18 AM

Hello Stuart and thank you very much for your response. I did know what the VOC stood for and with the clip point on the blades I thought that these could be something interesting. I normally collect Philippine weapons but some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this and was just hoping that this was not going to be the case with these.

I have seen some Dutch swords with this type of tip to the blades but not with the lion hilt. Like I said before, any and all help with these will be greatly appreciated.

Robert

celtan · 26th January 2010, 02:47 AM

: )

We all have been there. And yet, after a while, you develop a third sense that attracts you to actually meaningful stuff, even though you may not consciously "know" anything about it.

That's intuitive intelligence, and it's far more effective than the usual rational process.

Nice swords!

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

...some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this

Robert

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2010, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

: )

We all have been there. And yet, after a while, you develop a third sense that attracts you to actually meaningful stuff, even though you may not consciously "know" anything about it.

That's intuitive intelligence, and it's far more effective than the usual rational process.

Nice swords!

M

And very nicely said Manolo!!!

All the best,
Jim

Rick · 26th January 2010, 03:01 AM

These resemble very much the A. Coppel Dutch klewang blade .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=dutch+klewang

You got a steal .
Congrats !

Robert · 27th January 2010, 12:41 AM

Celtan, Jim and Rick, Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and for the information everyone has offered. I guess that sometimes you can get lucky even after you've had a few to many barley pops.

As far as how the seller decided that these were Masonic, he said that is what he was told when he bought them at a garage sale. I didn't find this out until after I had made him an offer and he ended the auction. I have been searching the net for more information on these to no avail. I even went so far as to read the infamous

"thread that SHALL NOT be named"

. I believe that Jim is right that these are probably some kind of Indonesian ceremonial sword. With any luck something will come to light when they arrive and I have a chance to inspect them a little better for other markings. Do you think that there is any chance that someone here might have a couple of drags for the scabbards laying around that they would like to part with?

Again let me thank you all for you help and I will be posting more pictures when these arrive.

Robert

David · 27th January 2010, 04:38 AM

No offense to European arms collectors intended Jim, but i'm not so sure that the "Indonesian Experts" spend all that much time checking stuff out over on this forum. Robert, you might want to post this over on the main forum to see is it attracts some more attention. The VOC mark looks a bit rough and suspect to me, but you never know...

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2010, 02:49 AM

Hi Robert,
Unbelievable, where did the seller ever get the idea these were Masonic??!!!
I guess it is inevitable that I bring up the now legendary 'Shaver Kool' thread, which ran for five years (2000-2005) and I think even ended up with a thread on 'another' forum titled 'Batavia Kool'. It had to do with what appeared to be an ivory hilt eagle or gryphon head pommel, the VOC mark, and a ship with the words SHAVER KOOL. This seemed to be a 19th century commemorative sword.

It was discovered that the Dutch naval swords would have had lionheads, according to Jan Piet Puype of the Legermuseum at Delft, Netherlands, there was a M1880 naval sword of such type I believe. These swords, and there seem to have been a number found, and it was suggested that the 'eagle' head may have been a garuda head since these were produced in Indonesia.
The Dutch navy apparantly had these issued as a sword of honor or 'pedang keharmatan', if my recollections are correct.

The VOC stamp on these is of course interpretative, and did not occur authentically on the forte, but in the blade center I believe. The stamp was only permitted by the best producers, and while a few examples are recorded of 17th century, they were not well known until 18th. The VOC was officially dissolved in 1800, superceded by Bataviaasche Genootschap, though the VOC stamp, much in the tradition of the markings on European trade blades, survived spuriously as a quality associated stamp.

These are likely Indonesian examples of ceremonial swords recalling these Dutch naval swords, with it seems an unusual klewang? type blade...the Indonesian experts here will undoubtedly clarify.

Best regards,
Jim

26th January 2010, 01:06 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,802	Hi Robert. Interesting swords. The VOC is the symbal of the Dutch East India Company, in the Dutch = Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie. Other than that I'm sorry I know nothing of the swords themselves, but IF they are what they appear to be, then I would say you got a bargain! Regards Stuart

26th January 2010, 01:18 AM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Stuart and thank you very much for your response. I did know what the VOC stood for and with the clip point on the blades I thought that these could be something interesting. I normally collect Philippine weapons but some times I see something that looks interesting that I know nothing about and end up buying it purely on impulse. I've ended up with some real junk doing this and was just hoping that this was not going to be the case with these. I have seen some Dutch swords with this type of tip to the blades but not with the lion hilt. Like I said before, any and all help with these will be greatly appreciated. Robert

26th January 2010, 03:01 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	These resemble very much the A. Coppel Dutch klewang blade . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=dutch+klewang You got a steal . Congrats !

27th January 2010, 12:41 AM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Celtan, Jim and Rick, Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and for the information everyone has offered. I guess that sometimes you can get lucky even after you've had a few to many barley pops. As far as how the seller decided that these were Masonic, he said that is what he was told when he bought them at a garage sale. I didn't find this out until after I had made him an offer and he ended the auction. I have been searching the net for more information on these to no avail. I even went so far as to read the infamous "thread that SHALL NOT be named" . I believe that Jim is right that these are probably some kind of Indonesian ceremonial sword. With any luck something will come to light when they arrive and I have a chance to inspect them a little better for other markings. Do you think that there is any chance that someone here might have a couple of drags for the scabbards laying around that they would like to part with? Again let me thank you all for you help and I will be posting more pictures when these arrive. Robert

27th January 2010, 04:38 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	No offense to European arms collectors intended Jim, but i'm not so sure that the "Indonesian Experts" spend all that much time checking stuff out over on this forum. Robert, you might want to post this over on the main forum to see is it attracts some more attention. The VOC mark looks a bit rough and suspect to me, but you never know...

26th January 2010, 02:49 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Hi Robert, Unbelievable, where did the seller ever get the idea these were Masonic??!!! I guess it is inevitable that I bring up the now legendary 'Shaver Kool' thread, which ran for five years (2000-2005) and I think even ended up with a thread on 'another' forum titled 'Batavia Kool'. It had to do with what appeared to be an ivory hilt eagle or gryphon head pommel, the VOC mark, and a ship with the words SHAVER KOOL. This seemed to be a 19th century commemorative sword. It was discovered that the Dutch naval swords would have had lionheads, according to Jan Piet Puype of the Legermuseum at Delft, Netherlands, there was a M1880 naval sword of such type I believe. These swords, and there seem to have been a number found, and it was suggested that the 'eagle' head may have been a garuda head since these were produced in Indonesia. The Dutch navy apparantly had these issued as a sword of honor or 'pedang keharmatan', if my recollections are correct. The VOC stamp on these is of course interpretative, and did not occur authentically on the forte, but in the blade center I believe. The stamp was only permitted by the best producers, and while a few examples are recorded of 17th century, they were not well known until 18th. The VOC was officially dissolved in 1800, superceded by Bataviaasche Genootschap, though the VOC stamp, much in the tradition of the markings on European trade blades, survived spuriously as a quality associated stamp. These are likely Indonesian examples of ceremonial swords recalling these Dutch naval swords, with it seems an unusual klewang? type blade...the Indonesian experts here will undoubtedly clarify. Best regards, Jim