Ancestors of yataghans

[Jeff D]

Hi Erlikhan,

Great information, my post was only reguarding the museums claim that these bronze swords where Scythian. Number 2 I think is Persian and I haven't a clue about the other, as bronze weapons are way out of my league. I will post some pictures to show what I mean.
Next to hockey and sabers, horses are my other passion. The mounting of the rider over the withers (the front part of the back) is to shift his weight onto the front legs, this allows the horse to run faster freeing up the back legs where most of the driving force is derived. A jockey is able to do this even more by having short stirrups allowing him to shift all his weight off the back and move it forward infront of the horses point of balance. Modern riders will slow a horse by simply shifting their weight back onto the horses back. The forward position is therefore not for control but for speed and endurance. There where a number of horse cultures before the Scythians in the steppes and many migrated out. Scythians were a light cavalry using composite bows and throwing javalins. Mobility and speed was their trade mark, to great effect. The next big breakthrough was the development of stirrups by the Goths. This allowed the horse to perform as a elevated platform for lance, sword etc. and act as a shock force, thus developing the heavy cavalry. This developed around 400 AD.
Here are a few examples of Scythian swords that I could find;

[Jeff D]

Here is a sword similar to one of yours dates to around 1500 BC. found in laristan. (same as yours)

Hope this helps
Jeff

ed. I uploaded the wrong photo here is the correct one

[TVV]

Jeff, this is exactly what I started to write: Scythians did not have stirrups and it would have been hard for them to use swords while mounted. However, I always associated the invention of the stirrups with the Huns, or perhaps even the Sarmathians, and not the Goths, but this is immaterial to the discussion at hand. It was later than 1500 B.C. by all means.
Toa dd something more to the discussion, here is a picture of a Thracian mahaira, which in its essence is almost identical to the kopis, if not the same thing.

[Jeff D]

Thanks TVV,

I just did a quick google and it seem that the Huns most likely did invent the stirrup. Things have changed since I last read about the battle of Hadrianople where the Romans where rudely introduced to it.
And to add a little more here is a Scythian hilt;

[TVV]

Jeff, I believe the Goths were unlucky enough to be in the Huns' way on their migration to Central Europe, as they inhabited Eastern Europe above the Danube. It is quite likely that they acquired the stirrups from the Huns, and somewhere I cannot really remember now I read the Sarmathians came up with the stirrups first. In any case, the Scythians did not have knowledge of the stirrups. This does not solve the question about the origin of Erlikhan's bronze swords, particularly the long one with the eared pommell. Just because it is long, it does not necessarily mean that it was used on horseback.

[Jeff D]

Hi TVV,

I found these interesting swords thought to be Bactrian 1000BC. Note the ears on the larger one.

Jeff

[Jeff D]

Hi Erlikhan,

I just found this one which is thought to be from Amlash. There is a fellow named John Piscopo who posts regularlly on the SFI site that could help you further http://forums.swordforum.com/forumdi...?s=&forumid=12

Jeff

[TVV]

Great job digging this one out. The similarity with Erlikhan's long eared pommel sword is obvious. In order to avoid further confusion, could you please provide the source of this picture, and more specifically the reasons for the dating.