Balinese Hilt Help Requested

Ian · 22nd May 2005, 05:29 PM

Vandoo:

Thanks for that link. The sweet tones of the fruit bat are hard to forget!

They would definitely be an "acquired taste."

The variety that we saw mostly in Sydney was the black fruit bat. And they were big bats. Interesting to note the mystical properties attributed to eating bats, which are still considered a delicacy among indigenous populations.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IAN I TOO HAVE LISTENED TO BE BEAUTIFUL SINGING OF THE FLYING FOX AND THE LOVELY CROONING OF THE MUTTON BIRDS

SEARCH FOR FLYING FOX ON GOOGLE AND THEN SELECT FLYING FOXES IN AUSTRALIA THERE IS A SOUND BITE WHERE YOU CAN GO NOSTALGIC AND LISTEN TO THE FRUIT BATS, LOVELY FOR SLEEPING ENJOY

IN SOME SOCIETYS THE BATS ARE CONSIDERED A DELICY BUT LIKE THE DURIAN FRUIT THEY ARE QUITE PUNGENT. IT IS ALSO A GOOD PLACE TO LOOK FOR LARGE SNAKES AROUND THEIR SLEEPING CAMPS AS IT IS A SURE FOOD SOURCE, VERY STINKY THOUGH.

tom hyle · 23rd May 2005, 12:12 AM

Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something.
The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.

BluErf · 23rd May 2005, 02:08 AM

Thanks for pointing out the subtleties, Tom. Looks like I need to brush up on my animal anatomy.

http://www.edugraphics.net/ga15-birds/ga150-ch.htm

tuancd · 24th May 2005, 05:29 PM

hi! everyone,
dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago

Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken.
For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it...
For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not...

tom hyle · 25th May 2005, 01:49 AM

Someone said Hanuman flies in stories or something? Could this be symbolized by wings tied on as a garment, not unlike Hermes' shoes? Is there any legend about why or how Hanuman flies?

RobT · 25th May 2005, 04:09 AM

A Thousand Thanks tuancd for the photo of the sarong cover. I knew mine was missing but I didn't know what it was supposed to look like. I will use a printout of your photo as a guide for making a replacement. The other Balinese sarong that I have has the cover in place but that cover and wranka lack the ridge shown in your photo. Had I not seen your photo, I would have copied the wrong style. By the way, does the cover have a specific name? One thing I am puzzled about in your post is the description of the wood as kayu pelet. I had always thought that kayu pelet was a light colored wood with dark blotches as described in Edward Frey's "The Kris" pg 43 and shown on color plate 9. I would have thought the wood you show is kemuning. I really appreciate you trying to locate the mention of a hilt like mine. I rather doubt that the creature is just some Indonesian flight of fancy. It has been my experience (admittedly limited) that keris hulu tend to be traditional in form and/or depiction and this is particularly true of figural hilts so I'm betting that my bad boy is, if not somebody specific, at least connected to some culturally significant site, ritual or occurance.
Sincerely,
RobT

tuancd · 25th May 2005, 11:09 AM

Hi everyone
Robt
Have a look on plate 14 c of the same book. A burly design kemuning could also be nice but usually it's more like 10 a or 11 a.

And Guess who came for dinner last night... I found a cousin of your Hulu

It is not a Hulu but there are many similarities like, sex, wings, crest, bulging eyes...

It comes from L'art populaire à Bali of Urs Ramseyer. I think they just republished it in a new version (english). Urs describe this little guy (plate 230) as "Caratan Cicipan" a devil bird spreading his wings and ornamenting a holy water container. The water goes through out of the penis. Terra cota from Djasi, Karangasem 14.5cm diameter and 27 cm high from the museum of Bali MB 222

It is used in ceremony of purification before mabhakti (veneration).

Hope it leads somewhere...

23rd May 2005, 02:08 AM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks for pointing out the subtleties, Tom. Looks like I need to brush up on my animal anatomy. http://www.edugraphics.net/ga15-birds/ga150-ch.htm Attached Images Last edited by BluErf; 23rd May 2005 at 02:20 AM.

24th May 2005, 05:29 PM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	hi! everyone, dear Bluerf it is not the Garuda hilt of "kris gli invincibili" but Devi with its elephant and turtle. Sorry to correct you. And your Jeckle looks like more "Jatayu", sometime found as the son of Garuda or at as the evil vulture devil. I got a picture of Heckle some time ago Robt on your sarong the wood cover is missing. Usually Balinese use Kayu Pelet (Kayu wood; I don't know the Latin name) It is some kind of tiger design, light and orange in colour. And there is a sort of rib from the top to the second third of it. I have put an arrow on the picture I have taken. For your hulu, I have seen one like that but I cannot recall where. I'm still looking trough my documentation and will come back to you, if I can find it... For the guessing part, I don't recall any Garuda with a tail, nor a hanuman or Sugriva with wings. A Bat is a strange idea but in Bali they have an extensive imagination, so why not... Attached Images

25th May 2005, 04:09 AM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 568	Sarong info thanks A Thousand Thanks tuancd for the photo of the sarong cover. I knew mine was missing but I didn't know what it was supposed to look like. I will use a printout of your photo as a guide for making a replacement. The other Balinese sarong that I have has the cover in place but that cover and wranka lack the ridge shown in your photo. Had I not seen your photo, I would have copied the wrong style. By the way, does the cover have a specific name? One thing I am puzzled about in your post is the description of the wood as kayu pelet. I had always thought that kayu pelet was a light colored wood with dark blotches as described in Edward Frey's "The Kris" pg 43 and shown on color plate 9. I would have thought the wood you show is kemuning. I really appreciate you trying to locate the mention of a hilt like mine. I rather doubt that the creature is just some Indonesian flight of fancy. It has been my experience (admittedly limited) that keris hulu tend to be traditional in form and/or depiction and this is particularly true of figural hilts so I'm betting that my bad boy is, if not somebody specific, at least connected to some culturally significant site, ritual or occurance. Sincerely, RobT

25th May 2005, 11:09 AM	#7
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi everyone Robt Have a look on plate 14 c of the same book. A burly design kemuning could also be nice but usually it's more like 10 a or 11 a. And Guess who came for dinner last night... I found a cousin of your Hulu It is not a Hulu but there are many similarities like, sex, wings, crest, bulging eyes... It comes from L'art populaire à Bali of Urs Ramseyer. I think they just republished it in a new version (english). Urs describe this little guy (plate 230) as "Caratan Cicipan" a devil bird spreading his wings and ornamenting a holy water container. The water goes through out of the penis. Terra cota from Djasi, Karangasem 14.5cm diameter and 27 cm high from the museum of Bali MB 222 It is used in ceremony of purification before mabhakti (veneration). Hope it leads somewhere... Attached Images

23rd May 2005, 12:12 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Even a bird's leg bends like a human's; just in different proportions. Consider the familiar dead chicken. The hind leg has a thigh; cognate of our thigh, with a single long bone that swings off the side of the pelvis. Jointed to it is the "drumstick" which swings back, just as our lower leg does, and has a greater and lesser long bone, just as our lower leg does. The third long part of the leg, the one that bends forward and is usually cut off before cooking in N America, is as with many quadrupeds, an elongated foot. The carving shows this as well; the leg clearly is attached at the buttocks; it goes forward, passing thru a binding (?) of some kind, comes to a rounded point, presumeably a joint, but no details of the inside of the bend; then the leg bends back, passing thru the same binding; then it comes to a similar rounded point which IS an explicit joint, the binding not being in the way of this one, and the leg/foot bends forward to end in claws. It's this whole bound knee thing, and the harnessy look of the stripes on sides arms and legs that makes me think the figure is depicted as wearing a disquise or something. The face looks a LOT like that bat photo, except the pompadour.

25th May 2005, 01:49 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Someone said Hanuman flies in stories or something? Could this be symbolized by wings tied on as a garment, not unlike Hermes' shoes? Is there any legend about why or how Hanuman flies?