BICHWA (THE SCORPIONS STING)

Lew · 6th January 2010, 09:02 PM

The bottom dagger is not a khanjarli . This is in the family of daggers known as Tiger Teeth they come from North India, They are characterized by the curved blade with reinforced edges and slightly thickened tip.

VANDOO · 6th January 2010, 09:43 PM

TRUE ITS AS YOU SAY AND I DID MIS IDENTIFY IT AS PERSIAN. THE THING I AM GETTING AT IS A POSSIBLE ORIGIN AND REASON FOR THE CURVED BLADE BEING DEVELOPED. IN THE BRONZE AGE MOST SWORDS AND DAGGERS HAD STRAIGHT BLADES, PERHAPS IT WAS BECAUSE OF WHAT IS NEEDED TO WORK BRONZE WEAPONS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ALL FORMS OF BRONZE WEAPONS BUT MOST OF THE SWORDS AND DAGGERS FROM LURISTAN, SYTHIA, GREECE AND CHINA I HAVE SEEN HAVE ALL BEEM STRAIGHT. SOME OF THE BRONZE AX BLADES ARE CURVED AND SOME EARLY CEREMONIAL ITEMS HAVE CURVED SHAPES.
THE CHINESE BRONZE POLE AX ( SHANG DYNASTY) WOULD STRIKE IN THE SAME MANNER AS A SCORPION. THE GREEK KOPIS AT THE MET. IS EARLY IRON AGE IS THE FIRST CURVED SWORDS I AM AWARE OF. PERHAPS SOMEONE WITH MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANYTHING ELSE REFERRED TO AS A SCORPION DAGGER, SWORD OR SPEAR ECT. ? I ADDED A SCORPIONS STINGER AND A 16 CENTURY KHANJAR.
I WAS JUST THINKING AND THOUGHT PERHAPS THIS MAY MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

VANDOO · 6th January 2010, 09:57 PM

JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE.

ariel · 6th January 2010, 10:02 PM

"JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE.
Attached Images"

They are for middle-aged adults still in the comics book stage :-)

Luc LEFEBVRE · 6th January 2010, 10:12 PM

Here a throwing knife from Sudan, Ingessana tribe, called "muder" : the scorpion.

Emanuel · 6th January 2010, 10:48 PM

Hi Vandoo,

Very interesting topic. In the case of the khanjar and other curved daggers I think the curve of a canine a closer point of inspiration. The curve naturally follows the arc of a downward-stabbing, biting motion. In the case of canines, the curve also helps retain prey. Perhaps a reason for the double-recurve daggers, potentially seen as harder to remove from the target (and harder to stab to begin with as well).

In the case of the falcatta/kopis and the large forward-curved knives they are derived from, i think the shape is the result of physical considerations. It makes for a good chopper, and a good draw-cut.

I do, however, agree on the powerfully symbolism of the scorpion as an agent of death - be it positive or negative.

All the best,
Emanuel

Atlantia · 6th January 2010, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

"JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE.
Attached Images"

They are for middle-aged adults still in the comics book stage :-)

Should I admit now that I have Kano's Mortal Kombat 'Raptor' by Gil Hibben?

Um, middle aged adult into: video games, knives and movies?..... How could I 'not' buy it?

VANDOO · 7th January 2010, 12:04 AM

I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN THE FANTASY KNIVES OR THOSE WHO LIKE THEM. I HAVE AN EARLY VERSION OF THE RAPTOR WITH GILL HIBBENS SIGNATURE.

I NO LONGER READ COMICS ,ITS NOT REALLY NECESSARY THESE DAYS AS THEY HAVE MADE MOVIES BASED ON MANY OF THEM. I WILL BUY A FANTASY ITEM BASED ON IF I FIND IT ASETHILLCY PLEASING (NEAT) AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT.

THE POWER OF CERTAN ANIMALS HAVE BEEN ADMIRED AND FEARED SINCE THE HUNTER GATHER DAYS. THE FANG AND CLAW WERE FEARED BECAUSE THEY COULD DEAL DEATH TO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. HUMANS HAVE A NATURAL FIGHTING INSTINCT TO STRIKE WITH HANDS AND FEET AS WELL AS TO BITE. HAVING SMALL TEETH AND NO CLAWS TO SPEAK OF WE NO DOUBT MANUFACTURED SOME TO BE USED FOR STRIKING WITH OUR HANDS. THE CLUB OR HAND HELD OR THROWN ROCK BEING OUR MOST LIKELY FIRST WEAPON.
WHEN RELIGION AND HUNTING/ FIGHTING CULTS OR GROUPS WERE FORMED THEY OFTEN HAD A TOTUM OR CLAN SYMBOL ECT. WEAPONS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY THIS ANIMAL AS WERE COSTUMES AND MASKS. WHERE THE SCORPION DOSEN'T EXHIST SUCH AS IN COLD WET CLIMATES IT WOULD NOT BE PRESENT. BUT IN AREAS WHERE IT IS PLENTIFUL AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STUNG WAS HIGH IT IS MORE LIKELY TO RECEIVE MORE HUMAN INTREST. THE SERPENT HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF ATTENTION AND IS IN MANY LEGENDS AND OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUPERNATURAL. THUS THE NAGA AS WELL AS THE SCORPION AMONG OTHERS MAY FIGURE INTO DESCRIPTIONS OF BLADES OF ALL SORTS.

VANDOO · 8th January 2010, 04:39 PM

TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE I LET IT FADE INTO THE HAZE.

TOOLS ARE USUALLY DESIGNED TO PREFORM A CERTIAN FUNCTION BUT IT IS POSSIBLE NOT ALL WEAPONS BEGAN OR WERE DESIGNED JUST FOR THEIR INTENDED FUNCTION.

SOME MAY HAVE STARTED AS PURELY CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WEAPON OF SOME FEARED SPIRIT OR DIETY IN THE SOCIETYS LEGENDS SOMEONE MADE A WEAPON THAT EVOLVED BASED ON THESE WEAPONS FROM THE GODS OR SPIRITS.

THE EARLY BRONZE AGE WEAPONS WERE FAIRLY SIMULAR IN BLADE FORMS AND THE MAJORITY WERE STRAIGHT BLADES. ONE BRONZE EGYPTIAN SWORD BEING AN EXCEPTION, SORRY I FORGET ITS NAME ,IT IS THE ODD SHAPED CHOPPER STYLE. IT WAS USED IN THE MUMMY MOVIES BY THE PHAROS GAURDS.

I THINK THE SUPERNATURAL , RELIGIOUS AND ANIMISTIC BELIEFS HAD MORE INFLUENCE ON THE DESIGN OF MANY WEAPONS DUE TO THEIR USE TO TAKE HUMAN LIFE. PERHAPS SOMEWHERE THERE ARE PROBABLY REFRENCES TO SUCH OCCURANCES BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO LINK IT ALL TOGETHER. THOR OF COURSE USED A MAGICAL HAMMER, SHIVA HAD A TRIDENT AMONG OTHER WEAPONS AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES.
A WARRIOR THEN AS NOW NEEDED MORE PROTECTION FROM THE GODS, TOTUMS OR SPIRITS HIS SOCIETY BELIEVED IN AS HE WAS GOING INTO HARMS WAY FOR HIS PEOPLE. SOMETIMES THIS MAY HAVE HAD AN INFLUENCE ON THE FORMS AND SYMBOLS ON WEAPONS.
OF COURSE SOME ANCIENT BUSNESS MAN MAY HAVE MADE A NEAT CURVED DAGGER AND CALLED IT A SCORPIONS STING AND EVERYONE WANTED ONE.

BUT
I PREFER THE INFLUENCE OF LEGENDS, SUPERSTITION AND THE ANIMISTIC BELIEFS IN CERTIAN FEARED AND RESPECTED GODS OR ANIMALS AS THE INFLUENCES.

Atlantia · 6th January 2010, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

The bottom dagger is not a khanjarli . This is in the family of daggers known as Tiger Teeth they come from North India, They are characterized by the curved blade with reinforced edges and slightly thickened tip.

Which shows just how interesting this 'study' is, and the potential 'inspiration' for these marvelous Indian weapons.
Following the tiger theme, the bagh-Nakh is 'tiger claws'. (not adding pics as this is really a digression from the theme of curved daggers)

6th January 2010, 09:43 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TRUE ITS AS YOU SAY AND I DID MIS IDENTIFY IT AS PERSIAN. THE THING I AM GETTING AT IS A POSSIBLE ORIGIN AND REASON FOR THE CURVED BLADE BEING DEVELOPED. IN THE BRONZE AGE MOST SWORDS AND DAGGERS HAD STRAIGHT BLADES, PERHAPS IT WAS BECAUSE OF WHAT IS NEEDED TO WORK BRONZE WEAPONS. I HAVE NOT SEEN ALL FORMS OF BRONZE WEAPONS BUT MOST OF THE SWORDS AND DAGGERS FROM LURISTAN, SYTHIA, GREECE AND CHINA I HAVE SEEN HAVE ALL BEEM STRAIGHT. SOME OF THE BRONZE AX BLADES ARE CURVED AND SOME EARLY CEREMONIAL ITEMS HAVE CURVED SHAPES. THE CHINESE BRONZE POLE AX ( SHANG DYNASTY) WOULD STRIKE IN THE SAME MANNER AS A SCORPION. THE GREEK KOPIS AT THE MET. IS EARLY IRON AGE IS THE FIRST CURVED SWORDS I AM AWARE OF. PERHAPS SOMEONE WITH MUCH MORE KNOWLEGE THAN I CAN SHED SOME LIGHT ON THE SUBJECT. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF ANYTHING ELSE REFERRED TO AS A SCORPION DAGGER, SWORD OR SPEAR ECT. ? I ADDED A SCORPIONS STINGER AND A 16 CENTURY KHANJAR. I WAS JUST THINKING AND THOUGHT PERHAPS THIS MAY MAKE FOR AN INTERESTING DISCUSSION. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 6th January 2010 at 09:54 PM.

6th January 2010, 10:12 PM	#5
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Here a throwing knife from Sudan, Ingessana tribe, called "muder" : the scorpion. Attached Images

7th January 2010, 12:04 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT PUTTING DOWN THE FANTASY KNIVES OR THOSE WHO LIKE THEM. I HAVE AN EARLY VERSION OF THE RAPTOR WITH GILL HIBBENS SIGNATURE. I NO LONGER READ COMICS ,ITS NOT REALLY NECESSARY THESE DAYS AS THEY HAVE MADE MOVIES BASED ON MANY OF THEM. I WILL BUY A FANTASY ITEM BASED ON IF I FIND IT ASETHILLCY PLEASING (NEAT) AND THE PRICE IS RIGHT. THE POWER OF CERTAN ANIMALS HAVE BEEN ADMIRED AND FEARED SINCE THE HUNTER GATHER DAYS. THE FANG AND CLAW WERE FEARED BECAUSE THEY COULD DEAL DEATH TO YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. HUMANS HAVE A NATURAL FIGHTING INSTINCT TO STRIKE WITH HANDS AND FEET AS WELL AS TO BITE. HAVING SMALL TEETH AND NO CLAWS TO SPEAK OF WE NO DOUBT MANUFACTURED SOME TO BE USED FOR STRIKING WITH OUR HANDS. THE CLUB OR HAND HELD OR THROWN ROCK BEING OUR MOST LIKELY FIRST WEAPON. WHEN RELIGION AND HUNTING/ FIGHTING CULTS OR GROUPS WERE FORMED THEY OFTEN HAD A TOTUM OR CLAN SYMBOL ECT. WEAPONS MAY HAVE BEEN INFLUENCED BY THIS ANIMAL AS WERE COSTUMES AND MASKS. WHERE THE SCORPION DOSEN'T EXHIST SUCH AS IN COLD WET CLIMATES IT WOULD NOT BE PRESENT. BUT IN AREAS WHERE IT IS PLENTIFUL AND THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING STUNG WAS HIGH IT IS MORE LIKELY TO RECEIVE MORE HUMAN INTREST. THE SERPENT HAS ALSO RECEIVED LOTS OF ATTENTION AND IS IN MANY LEGENDS AND OFTEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE SUPERNATURAL. THUS THE NAGA AS WELL AS THE SCORPION AMONG OTHERS MAY FIGURE INTO DESCRIPTIONS OF BLADES OF ALL SORTS. Last edited by VANDOO; 7th January 2010 at 01:18 AM.

6th January 2010, 09:02 PM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The bottom dagger is not a khanjarli . This is in the family of daggers known as Tiger Teeth they come from North India, They are characterized by the curved blade with reinforced edges and slightly thickened tip.

6th January 2010, 09:57 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE. Attached Images

6th January 2010, 10:02 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	"JUST FOR FUN HERE ARE SOME OF THE CURRENT EBAY FANTASY ITEMS. PROBABLY VERY ATTRACTIVE TO THE YOUNG BOYS STILL IN THE COMIC BOOK STAGE. Attached Images" They are for middle-aged adults still in the comics book stage :-)

6th January 2010, 10:48 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Vandoo, Very interesting topic. In the case of the khanjar and other curved daggers I think the curve of a canine a closer point of inspiration. The curve naturally follows the arc of a downward-stabbing, biting motion. In the case of canines, the curve also helps retain prey. Perhaps a reason for the double-recurve daggers, potentially seen as harder to remove from the target (and harder to stab to begin with as well). In the case of the falcatta/kopis and the large forward-curved knives they are derived from, i think the shape is the result of physical considerations. It makes for a good chopper, and a good draw-cut. I do, however, agree on the powerfully symbolism of the scorpion as an agent of death - be it positive or negative. All the best, Emanuel

8th January 2010, 04:39 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	TO SUM UP MY THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT BEFORE I LET IT FADE INTO THE HAZE. TOOLS ARE USUALLY DESIGNED TO PREFORM A CERTIAN FUNCTION BUT IT IS POSSIBLE NOT ALL WEAPONS BEGAN OR WERE DESIGNED JUST FOR THEIR INTENDED FUNCTION. SOME MAY HAVE STARTED AS PURELY CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND BECAUSE THEY WERE THE WEAPON OF SOME FEARED SPIRIT OR DIETY IN THE SOCIETYS LEGENDS SOMEONE MADE A WEAPON THAT EVOLVED BASED ON THESE WEAPONS FROM THE GODS OR SPIRITS. THE EARLY BRONZE AGE WEAPONS WERE FAIRLY SIMULAR IN BLADE FORMS AND THE MAJORITY WERE STRAIGHT BLADES. ONE BRONZE EGYPTIAN SWORD BEING AN EXCEPTION, SORRY I FORGET ITS NAME ,IT IS THE ODD SHAPED CHOPPER STYLE. IT WAS USED IN THE MUMMY MOVIES BY THE PHAROS GAURDS. I THINK THE SUPERNATURAL , RELIGIOUS AND ANIMISTIC BELIEFS HAD MORE INFLUENCE ON THE DESIGN OF MANY WEAPONS DUE TO THEIR USE TO TAKE HUMAN LIFE. PERHAPS SOMEWHERE THERE ARE PROBABLY REFRENCES TO SUCH OCCURANCES BUT IT MAY BE DIFFICULT TO LINK IT ALL TOGETHER. THOR OF COURSE USED A MAGICAL HAMMER, SHIVA HAD A TRIDENT AMONG OTHER WEAPONS AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXAMPLES. A WARRIOR THEN AS NOW NEEDED MORE PROTECTION FROM THE GODS, TOTUMS OR SPIRITS HIS SOCIETY BELIEVED IN AS HE WAS GOING INTO HARMS WAY FOR HIS PEOPLE. SOMETIMES THIS MAY HAVE HAD AN INFLUENCE ON THE FORMS AND SYMBOLS ON WEAPONS. OF COURSE SOME ANCIENT BUSNESS MAN MAY HAVE MADE A NEAT CURVED DAGGER AND CALLED IT A SCORPIONS STING AND EVERYONE WANTED ONE. BUT I PREFER THE INFLUENCE OF LEGENDS, SUPERSTITION AND THE ANIMISTIC BELIEFS IN CERTIAN FEARED AND RESPECTED GODS OR ANIMALS AS THE INFLUENCES.