Unsusual hilt

Alam Shah · 1st January 2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

.. A similar hit is in the book "Hulu keris" in which the author said it comes from Yogya ...or Solo area (I don't remember well)..

According to "Hulu Keris", it is said to be a Surakarta abstract piece, a cat devoured by a snake.. but in this case, it looks more like a puppy or a lamb..

What is the significance of the depiction? What does it symbolise?

David · 1st January 2010, 08:16 PM

hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

Hi David,
I just send a mail to my friend where I asked him if he have informations about the history of this hilt.

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

According to "Hulu Keris", it is said to be a Surakarta abstract piece, a cat devoured by a snake.. but in this case, it looks more like a puppy or a lamb..

What is the significance of the depiction? What does it symbolise?

Thank you Alam. This is what we want to know also. The hilt in "Hulu Keris" we know also but unfortunately there is no further background.

Sajen · 1st January 2010, 10:49 PM

The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

BluErf · 2nd January 2010, 02:37 AM

Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

Sajen · 2nd January 2010, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

The direct source my friend don't want to disclose. It coming from a german collector who assemble his small collection in the 60ties and 70ties of the last century in Indonesia and the Netherlands. This collector haven't had a well known name international.
I asked my friend for some additional pictures of the hilt. I haven't handled the hilt byself but my friend told me that it is to seen that this hilt have been mounted for a longer time on a keris, this signs are visible. But he is unsure if it is an antique hilt.

guwaya · 2nd January 2010, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

A common story - and: "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts.

I aggree with BluErf:
"Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful."

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM

In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion.

It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time.

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Naga Sasra · 2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM

Guwaya

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject

I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer.

Thank you,
Erik

guwaya · 3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM

Guwaya

Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued.

If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book?

[/QUOTE]

Naga Sasra:

I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following.

Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra:

I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once.

I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google).

Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to.

The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done.

Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD".

Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time.

So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested.

Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts.

Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra.

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

guwaya

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM

Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology.

I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris.

I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris.

Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris.

The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion.

In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris.

Guwaya, you have raised the question:-

If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer?

Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.

2nd January 2010, 01:49 PM	#10
Naga Sasra Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Boca Raton, Florida, USA Posts: 108	Hulu Keris Guwaya I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Is there any published book on Hulu Keris you would consider the foremost reference material available on the subject I am eager to continue the learning process, and look forward to your answer. Thank you, Erik

1st January 2010, 08:16 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	hmmm...i wonder about the age of this piece. I wonder if this isn't a contemporary artists interpretation of a rare older hilt which has then been treated to appear old. I am not familiar with the hilt in Hulu Keris. How old is that one said to be? It should be kept in mind that modern carvers are quite capable of reproducing rare old hilt styles and then presenting them as old with a bit of artificial aging and staining. Is it then a "rare" hilt or merely a copy of one?

1st January 2010, 10:49 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,272	The former owner of this hilt passed away more than twenty years ago and the family decide some time ago to sell this collection. There are no further informations when and where this hilt is collected, sorry.

2nd January 2010, 02:37 AM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Perhaps more information on from where and from whom this hilt is collected from would be helpful.

2nd January 2010, 04:25 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	In respect of the age of this hilt, I find that a digital photograph viewed on a PC screen is in no way adequate for me to form an opinion. It may be relatively old, it may be relatively new. I have no opinion at this time. Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

3rd January 2010, 03:31 AM	#11
guwaya Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 45	Guwaya Your comment that "Hulu Keris" is not a reference-book for hilts has me quite intrigued. If the book "Ragam Hulu Keris" by Suhartono Rahardjo is not a reference book for keris hilts, perhaps you would be so kind as to let us know how we are to regard this book? [/QUOTE] Naga Sasra: I am also intrigued by your statement regarding the "Ragam Hulu Keris" and in addition to the question posted by A.G. Maisey would like to know the following. Alan G. Maisey & Naga Sasra: I don't think that this is the right place to start a discussion about reference literature - on the other hand this is the second time in a short while somebody is searching for informations for a friend or a friend of a friend who is searching for answers but finally does not want to open his source - so it might be ok. once. I am not a teacher and I also don't want to be one. Finally everybody has to decide himselve what he views as a reference-book. Me for myself I adjust a certain demand to a book handled as a reference work. A reference book should contain useful facts, it should be a book you can refer for authoritative facts. It should be a book of facts which you look at to discover particular information and its cause is that the information is quickly found if needed. (For more please google). Under this aspect I cannot accept HULU KERIS as a reference book because of the lack of information. The lack that there isn't any book else is no criterion to take whatever is as a reference book. For me HULU KERIS is just an introductional overview of some ragam-ragam hulu keris to give an impression how many different forms there are and to which region they might be attributed to. The book from Zonnefeld about the Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago might be a a sample of how a reference book should look like although I am missing here the direct hints at every article to the sources of the information. But its a way a reference book about hilts could be done. Another good example for good research and serious information but limited to the Malayan Peninsular is the part of the hilts in "SPIRIT OF WOOD". Unfortunately a book about keris hilts covering the whole indonesian archipelago I also don't know - it would be an interesting challange for a serious field research but means investing a lot of money and time. So we are in the actual situation that people searching for special informations have to do a lot of work themselves and with the risk not to receive what they are looking for - but this is what the engagement into the keris involves. You cannot just open a book or ask the forum and get the information, you have to invest energy - one's own initiative is requested. Sooner or later hopefully somebody will do such above described serious and scientifically based researches and then possibly the result will be a reference book about keris hilts over the whole indonesian archipelago. At the present situation I don't see a global work or reference book about keris hilts. Finally, back to the HULU KERIS book, I would like to come to an end with a request to Alan G. Maisey and Naga Sasra. If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? guwaya

3rd January 2010, 04:54 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Thank you very much Guwaya for your clarification of terminology. I much appreciate this revelation of your personal approach to the study of the keris. I agree with you in that "Hulu Keris" would fail miserably by any academic standards for acceptance as a reference work, and the same is true of the bulk of the body of literature that relates to the keris. Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly that "Hulu Keris", together with all other literature relating to keris fails to provide well researched and referenced information, however, speaking only for myself, I find this lack of perfectly structured, academically referenced information to be part of the fascination of the study of the keris, as it permits us to carry out our own research and form our own opinions, and all this research and the attendant opinion adds to the body of knowledge relating to the keris. The ongoing discussion of keris literature as it relates to the various topics raised for discussion here, forms an integral part of our discussion, and our joint learning process, thus it is appropriate, in my opinion, to discuss literature and reference sources relating to any matter under discussion. In fact, some of the most valuable research and opinion to come forth in recent years has been produced by people who have no special relationship with, nor interest in, the keris. Guwaya, you have raised the question:- If you go back in your collection life - let's say to the point you were collecting for 5 years. You come to Solo and somebody offers you a hilt - let's say the solonese variation of the on Bali so-called Balu Mekabun hilt. You ask the person,. "what does this style represent?" and you get the answer: "it represents an abstract human figure!" Would you have been satisfied with this answer? Again, speaking only for myself, at the age of 16 or 17 --- which is when I would have been collecting for 5 years or so --- had I been fortunate enough to be in that Solo position, I would probably have been jubilant to have received such a revealing and perceptive answer. If ten years later I had been so stupid as to have even asked such a question, well, I would probably have been stupid enough to be satisfied with the answer then, also.